So, you’ve got zero problem with Trump voters on moral grounds, correct?
How could one possibly twist themselves into believing that a political act can somehow exist outside the realm of ethics and morality? Politics is ethics. Ethics are political. Why are you you trying to decouple these? Oh wait… its because yall will do whatever mental gymnastics are needed to justify voting for a genocidal, former cop.
In America’s general election you get two choices for president, the bad choice and the worse choice. That’s the undisputable reality. As South Park once elegantly put it, choose between the giant douche and the turd sandwich. Now, often times which candidate is which is a matter of perspective, but sometimes it’s pretty clear to see who the worse choice is.
For instance, so many people got on a high horse against Kamala for supporting Israel, and they weren’t wholly wrong, but her opponent was very well known for being an admirer of Netanyahu and never took a stance against the genocide either. So considering both parties seemed likely to let Israel keep on keeping on it was a very strange thing to get hung up on electorally; there was little to no chance that we’d have an election outcome would have ended well for Palestine regardless, and having lived through Trump’s first term and his attempted coup there was plenty of evidence to suggest that he would be the worse choice.
Now, many people used the argument that politics and ethics are completely inseparable, saw that both candidates would be bad for Palestine, then refused to vote on moral grounds, thereby doing their part in condemning America to its current circumstances of grappling with human rights crises at home. Thousands brutalized by ICE and CBP, shipped to torture centers for crimes the didn’t commit (e.g. El Salvador) children separated from parents (again) and effectively orphaned (again)… Much of this very much predictable given his first term. I’m not seeing this supposed moral high ground.
The act of voting is indeed a political act, and not a moral one. One’s politics and ethics may intertwine, but at the end of the day you only get two choices and chances are that in order to avoid the greater evil you need to ensure the lesser evil prevails. It shouldn’t work this way but sadly it does.
Genocide is by far one of the worst crimes against humanity. If someone supports genocide they are morally corrupt to the core. They don’t care if you live or die. They will sell you out the moment it gives them a personal advantage. What kind of democracy forces it’s citizens to choose between two such people?
Americans generally don’t support genocide nor do they want a leader who would treat them like chess pieces. Unfortunately, the American electoral system is incapable of reflecting popular sentiment. If it can’t do that, then it’s not a real democracy. Change can only come to the US if people learn to wield their collective power in ways that don’t depend on the elections. Barring that, Americans are fucked regardless of who they vote for.
Why, if the majority of Americans are against genocide, does democratic leadership support genocide? If they don’t think Palestinian lives matter why would they think gay, queer, and trans lives matter either? Vote for democrats all you want. I don’t care. Just don’t be so self righteous to think your vote meaningfully protects marginalized people.
Your speculation doesn’t match the observed history, though. Even if you don’t agree that Democrats have made progress in recent years for labor and gay rights, at least they haven’t actively rolled them back like Republicans. Police were out of control, but people weren’t disappearing at scale into black sites and being shuffled around to prevent any legal recourse.
“Change can only come to the US if people learn to wield their collective power in ways that don’t depend on the elections.”
No, change can only come if people repent of their political and religious idolatry and abandon their factional and sectarian creedos and turn to God the Father through his Son Jesus Christ. The nations are failing because the nations have abandoned the truth of God for humanist and sectarian lies, which are their idols. Man is worshiping himself, money, and power, which are the main idols causing all the madness. Madness is a spiritual condition, not an electoral one.
Well at least we ended up with the felon rapist pedophile fraud who threatens to wipe civilizations from the face of the Earth while robbing us blind instead of the flawed but highly educated black woman with no criminal record.
If people critical of this could organize something more useful than lemmy downvotes, that would be a start. I’m just genuinely confused by anyone that feels like not voting accomplishes anything. By definition, it is inaction. And mathematically, voting third party is the same as not voting. Why not at least defend gay and trans people? You can still do whatever non-voting-related actions you were planning to do to improve things. I guess you’re making your trolley problem choice. Honestly, the moral purity that has no impact just reads as vanity to me.
Well it’s good that we went with the low IQ felon rapist pedophile fraud who threatens to wipe civilizations off the face of the Earth and robs us blind.
Man, we almost ended up with an imperfect highly educated black woman with no criminal indictments instead. Can you imagine?
neither offered a different plan for american international involvement in the belligerent invasion, destruction and genocide in gaza
one of them was vaaaaastly different in every other fucking respect
single-issue voters are like crack to the conservative machine because they can use them so hard
…second only to non-voters
I agree with your point, but you must agree there was absolutely no feasible outcome of this last voting process that had any advertised improvement for gaza from America – but there was at least hope in the candidate those losers didn’t vote for.
Except electorilism isn’t a useful never mind the only method for changing society, as well as other options even for voting and anti-genocide should be basic. Never mind Harris isn’t “vastly different” she promised the most lethal military, cracked down hard on sex workers, promised to be extremely tough on the border, as AG discriminated against imprisoned trans people, promised to increase police budgets and I could keep going.
Always wild how the top level blue no matter who posts get enough upvotes to dominate the feed while just about every positively voted comment is calling out the post. Id wager theres a loot of bots round here.
Some voters vote for the future. Some for accountability for past actions. You don’t get to tell people the right way to vote.
In many ways, you’re advocating an inferior strategy. Politicians lie all the time, and their campaign promises are mostly wishful thinking. But holding a party accountable for their past actions actually has real data to go off of.
It’s always the same with common sense posts like yours on Lemmy. You get more upvotes than downvotes, which is good. But the number of downvotes is alarming and not a great sign for America’s future.
This country has a SERIOUS problem with common sense and accepting reality.
Again genocide isn’t a small thing, Harris also was very questionable on trans issues and extremely pro imperialism and cop.
Voting is a practical, political act, not a moral one. Anyone that tells you different is tricking you.
So, you’ve got zero problem with Trump voters on moral grounds, correct?
How could one possibly twist themselves into believing that a political act can somehow exist outside the realm of ethics and morality? Politics is ethics. Ethics are political. Why are you you trying to decouple these? Oh wait… its because yall will do whatever mental gymnastics are needed to justify voting for a genocidal, former cop.
In America’s general election you get two choices for president, the bad choice and the worse choice. That’s the undisputable reality. As South Park once elegantly put it, choose between the giant douche and the turd sandwich. Now, often times which candidate is which is a matter of perspective, but sometimes it’s pretty clear to see who the worse choice is.
For instance, so many people got on a high horse against Kamala for supporting Israel, and they weren’t wholly wrong, but her opponent was very well known for being an admirer of Netanyahu and never took a stance against the genocide either. So considering both parties seemed likely to let Israel keep on keeping on it was a very strange thing to get hung up on electorally; there was little to no chance that we’d have an election outcome would have ended well for Palestine regardless, and having lived through Trump’s first term and his attempted coup there was plenty of evidence to suggest that he would be the worse choice.
Now, many people used the argument that politics and ethics are completely inseparable, saw that both candidates would be bad for Palestine, then refused to vote on moral grounds, thereby doing their part in condemning America to its current circumstances of grappling with human rights crises at home. Thousands brutalized by ICE and CBP, shipped to torture centers for crimes the didn’t commit (e.g. El Salvador) children separated from parents (again) and effectively orphaned (again)… Much of this very much predictable given his first term. I’m not seeing this supposed moral high ground.
The act of voting is indeed a political act, and not a moral one. One’s politics and ethics may intertwine, but at the end of the day you only get two choices and chances are that in order to avoid the greater evil you need to ensure the lesser evil prevails. It shouldn’t work this way but sadly it does.
Genocidal former cop.
Felon rapist pedophile fraud who threatens to wipe civilizations from the face of the Earth while robbing us blind and destroying all our alliances.
Man. That’s a tough fucking decision.
almost like any other option is better
lol, america is so fucked
That’s not really an argument.
are we arguing?
No, I’m sorry this is “abuse”.
If you have to vote for someone who supports genocide you’re already fucked.
What does that mean, exactly?
Genocide is by far one of the worst crimes against humanity. If someone supports genocide they are morally corrupt to the core. They don’t care if you live or die. They will sell you out the moment it gives them a personal advantage. What kind of democracy forces it’s citizens to choose between two such people?
Americans generally don’t support genocide nor do they want a leader who would treat them like chess pieces. Unfortunately, the American electoral system is incapable of reflecting popular sentiment. If it can’t do that, then it’s not a real democracy. Change can only come to the US if people learn to wield their collective power in ways that don’t depend on the elections. Barring that, Americans are fucked regardless of who they vote for.
And what about gay, queer, or trans people? Have they not died enough? Because there absolutely is a difference between the parties for them.
Why, if the majority of Americans are against genocide, does democratic leadership support genocide? If they don’t think Palestinian lives matter why would they think gay, queer, and trans lives matter either? Vote for democrats all you want. I don’t care. Just don’t be so self righteous to think your vote meaningfully protects marginalized people.
Your speculation doesn’t match the observed history, though. Even if you don’t agree that Democrats have made progress in recent years for labor and gay rights, at least they haven’t actively rolled them back like Republicans. Police were out of control, but people weren’t disappearing at scale into black sites and being shuffled around to prevent any legal recourse.
@brianary@lemmy.zip
No, change can only come if people repent of their political and religious idolatry and abandon their factional and sectarian creedos and turn to God the Father through his Son Jesus Christ. The nations are failing because the nations have abandoned the truth of God for humanist and sectarian lies, which are their idols. Man is worshiping himself, money, and power, which are the main idols causing all the madness. Madness is a spiritual condition, not an electoral one.
Everything else is worldly-wise mind-poison.
#Repent
deleted by creator
You’re right. America is fucked, but speeding up it’s descent into fascism is bad praxis
Sure, but if you care about slowing the America’s descent into fascism, voting should not be your primary focus.
Well at least we ended up with the felon rapist pedophile fraud who threatens to wipe civilizations from the face of the Earth while robbing us blind instead of the flawed but highly educated black woman with no criminal record.
We really dodged a bullet, right?
Why are act utilitarians so insufferably smug?
That’s you reading into it, I think. I’m just tired.
Labels feel like a substitute for argument and thought.
If people critical of this could organize something more useful than lemmy downvotes, that would be a start. I’m just genuinely confused by anyone that feels like not voting accomplishes anything. By definition, it is inaction. And mathematically, voting third party is the same as not voting. Why not at least defend gay and trans people? You can still do whatever non-voting-related actions you were planning to do to improve things. I guess you’re making your trolley problem choice. Honestly, the moral purity that has no impact just reads as vanity to me.
"mathematically, voting third party is the same as not voting. "
that’s not true
I’m sorry, this is not a serious position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect
this doesn’t say what you said.
If you’d like to make an assertion and support it with facts, I’ll respond, but you’re wasting our time with simple contradiction.
i’ve presented exactly as much evidence for my position as you for yours.
No, I gave you a link that you didn’t read (you didn’t have time to have read it). I’m sorry you can’t support your fantasy, goodbye.
Well it’s good that we went with the low IQ felon rapist pedophile fraud who threatens to wipe civilizations off the face of the Earth and robs us blind.
Man, we almost ended up with an imperfect highly educated black woman with no criminal indictments instead. Can you imagine?
You understand not voting beat both options right? It wasn’t a race between Kamala and Trump because they have isolated entrenched voter bases.
It was that a corpo cop who would keep the genocide on simmer and was anointed cantidate didn’t inspire many.
She lost to the couch.
When the fight is between the right and the far right, you don’t let the far right win even if it’s not inspiring.
Buddy. You have to INSPIRE PEOPLE OR YOU LOSE.
And you use low IQ as an insult I see what kind of person you are.
Again, and this is painful to repeat so often:
I agree with your point, but you must agree there was absolutely no feasible outcome of this last voting process that had any advertised improvement for gaza from America – but there was at least hope in the candidate those losers didn’t vote for.
Except electorilism isn’t a useful never mind the only method for changing society, as well as other options even for voting and anti-genocide should be basic. Never mind Harris isn’t “vastly different” she promised the most lethal military, cracked down hard on sex workers, promised to be extremely tough on the border, as AG discriminated against imprisoned trans people, promised to increase police budgets and I could keep going.
So you’re saying you don’t grasp that it was either Harris or Trump and that there really is no argument for which one is worse?
Because that’s what the person you’re responding to is saying and you don’t appear to grasp it. Despite being a pretty simple concept.
Seems like you can’t grasp that they have refuted the other comment’s point. They grasped the point just fine and then dismantled it.
Darkfuture, I think you’re a media rep employed by the GOP. Possibly a bot.
Always wild how the top level blue no matter who posts get enough upvotes to dominate the feed while just about every positively voted comment is calling out the post. Id wager theres a loot of bots round here.
Some voters vote for the future. Some for accountability for past actions. You don’t get to tell people the right way to vote.
In many ways, you’re advocating an inferior strategy. Politicians lie all the time, and their campaign promises are mostly wishful thinking. But holding a party accountable for their past actions actually has real data to go off of.
It’s always the same with common sense posts like yours on Lemmy. You get more upvotes than downvotes, which is good. But the number of downvotes is alarming and not a great sign for America’s future.
This country has a SERIOUS problem with common sense and accepting reality.