Why is the autism community demonising people with NPD? Can’t the neurodivergent community stand together against ableism?
To be honest, autistic people who hate narcissitic people give Me the same vibe as gay people who hate trans people. It’s putting other people within the community down as if they’re our oppressors. Hey, maybe a neuronormative society is the cause of our suffering, and demonising egodivergence is just enforcing a bigoted worldview that will come back to hurt us.
inb4 Narcissus
Narcisssus was an aroace 16 year old who got put to death by the gods because he snapped back at a sexual harasser who abused him. A lot of people try to dodge accountability for what they say about NPD by saying they were talking about Greek mythology. But TBH that’s just as offensive.
Many of us have had turbulent relationships with parents or siblings. Combine that with the cloud of pop-psy disinfo surrounding personality disorders it’s bound to happen.
I personally don’t know how to call it out without making people feel like I’m blaming them for something real they suffered at the hands of a disregulated person, or an average abuser who they perceive to be disregulated. Coming at the issue from that side just seems like it will only spread the stigma.
One thing I did to try and help was invent the word “theseist”, based on the Greek Theseus, who abandoned his GF on an island and kidnapped 12 year old Helen of Troy to marry her, because he thought it would bring him glory. Theseus deserves the hate, and there’s no link to any mental disorders or other stigmas. We can give people new, better words to replace the bad ones.
But I was honestly so tilted by this meme, because I expect better from the community. We should be better than this, I was shocked and betrayed and angry. So My first instinct was not to give people better words, it was to react.
But yeah I don’t have the luxury of not engaging with people who use these tropes. I have NPD and I’m ace, so I get hit with both of the stigmas of this word. It triggers Me in the moment, and it contributes to a societal culture that has abused Me time after time. It’s easy to DARVO a n*rcissist.
Poorly worded memes aside this really is one of the places on fediverse where you have no enemies. Lady Butterfly is pretty chill and empathetic when she’s actually running the account manually so I think she’d get it. I’ve seen you go to bat for other stigmatized people who to my knowledge you didn’t have an intersection in common with so I think you deserve that too.
As for everyone’s awareness of personality disorders, it’s all a work in progress right? Gotta meet people where they’re at. And I hope where you’re at feels better soon.
Yeah, Lady Butterfly is great every other time I’ve seen her, so I was really surprised. Did you say she’s automated her account?
Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, they’re not all true, as this community does have some people who are not allies. I’ve just received a private message from the mod of the community claiming that My reports against the ableist slur are false. I’m told I’ll be banned if I do it again. And I’ve also received… this hate speech
I really want to report the hate speech, but I’ve been clearly warned that I’ll be banned if do, so I don’t think I can. I don’t feel safe in this community right now at all.
Not fully automated, she just has scheduled posts. I’m pretty sure she’s behind the wheel for her discussion posts on c/womensstuff at the very least. She definitely leaves comments still
Narcissus was a 16 year old boy who just wanted to be a hunter. Much like the goddess Artemis, he wanted to live in the forest and eschew all romantic and sexual connections.
He may have preferred isolation because he was famous across all of the Hellenic world for his great beauty. And no matter how many people asked this teenage boy for his hand in marriage or to have intimate relations, he refused.
There was one man, Ameinias, who would propose marriage to Narcissus again and again. He wouldn’t take no for an answer. One day, narcissus got completely fed up with it, and gave Ameinias a sword. He told the sexual harasser to go kill himself.
Ameinias did as he was told, and stabbed himself in the heart with the sword. But before he died, he prayed to Nemesis, “Though he should love, let him not have what he loves!” Nemesis agreed.
Narcissus loved nobody, at least not romantically or erotically. But after Nemesis agreed to Ameinias’ prayer, he noticed his reflection in a pond. Recognising himself for the first time in the way other people saw him, he became infatuated. Narcissus had neither food nor drink for the rest of his life. He simply sat and stared at himself until he died.
When he died, the nymphs of the forest, who loved him, grew flowers around his body. Narcissus flowers.
Nemesis is the goddess of punishment for hubris. She punishes mortals who think they’re better than the gods. Why would she punish Narcissus?
My theory is: The ancient Greeks (and their gods) were so aphobic, they thought if someone didn’t want to have sex, it’s because they think they’re better than everyone else.
I recognise that aphobic Greeks and aphobic westerners have lied to you about this myth. But Narcissus is our history, as asexuals. This is what people thought of us for 2,000 years. And it needs to change.
Second thing to remember: you are trying to play chicken with a retelling of an already ancient myth by Ovid (who isn’t fucking greek) who uses it as a way to explore concepts of obsession and - you guessed it! - narcissistic self involvement.
Literally, the original story makes no mention of echo, but a whole lot about the dude being a little bastard who was so self involved the only thing he could love was himself. Ovid added some things, but narcissus was never a woobie aroace, that shit is internet headcanon. Headcanons are fun, but don’t pretend this is scholarly fact.
Actually, all the stuff about Ameinias is from Conon’s Narrations, a Greek text from between 63 BC and 14 CE.
I’m gonna have to press X to doubt on you having read the “original story”, since it was an oral tradition that later got transcribed to text. I’ve cited both Ovid and Conon. Would you like to cite a specific scholar, or would you rather claim you personally went back in time 2,000+ years to talk to the original oral storytellers?
EDIT: Conon also wrote:
And from that the Thespians honor and reverence Eros especially, and learned to sacrifice to him both in the common rituals and privately.
According to this ancient greek scholar, we need to have sex even if we don’t want to, out of deference to the gods. Cause they’re aphobes. And you’re making excuses for them.
Parthenius’ version doesn’t say a whole lot about Narcissus being a little bastard. It says one line:
He had a cruel heart, and hated all of them,
That’s not really a source, it’s a completely subjective judgement. As a rule, I tend not to trust gossip about a person that says they’re bad, but not why. Because we don’t really know why Parthenius judged Narcissus. Conon said Narcissus was bad because he was asexual, so I’ll hazard a guess that Parthenius may have agreed. Because it’s literally the only clue we have about why Parthenius insulted Narcissus.
I see you’re commenting from lemmy.blahaj.zone. You realise conservatives say the exact same thing about you and Me because we’re trans, as you’re saying about Me because I have NPD?
Hatred is a double edged sword and if you use it on people in the community, you’ll cut your own nose off.
I said who hurt children, if you are able to control yourself and not hurt others with your npd then everything is fine but if you show a history of abuse then you wouldn’t be welcome in my circle. I even have empathy for people with issues they have to combat themselves to not hurt others. Pedos, npd, suicidal people.
People have free will. Hurting other people is a choice that people make. Having a mental disorder is not a choice, it’s something that happens to people because of genetics or chemistry or trauma.
Why is the autism community demonising people with NPD? Can’t the neurodivergent community stand together against ableism?
To be honest, autistic people who hate narcissitic people give Me the same vibe as gay people who hate trans people. It’s putting other people within the community down as if they’re our oppressors. Hey, maybe a neuronormative society is the cause of our suffering, and demonising egodivergence is just enforcing a bigoted worldview that will come back to hurt us.
inb4 Narcissus
Narcisssus was an aroace 16 year old who got put to death by the gods because he snapped back at a sexual harasser who abused him. A lot of people try to dodge accountability for what they say about NPD by saying they were talking about Greek mythology. But TBH that’s just as offensive.
Many of us have had turbulent relationships with parents or siblings. Combine that with the cloud of pop-psy disinfo surrounding personality disorders it’s bound to happen.
I personally don’t know how to call it out without making people feel like I’m blaming them for something real they suffered at the hands of a disregulated person, or an average abuser who they perceive to be disregulated. Coming at the issue from that side just seems like it will only spread the stigma.
One thing I did to try and help was invent the word “theseist”, based on the Greek Theseus, who abandoned his GF on an island and kidnapped 12 year old Helen of Troy to marry her, because he thought it would bring him glory. Theseus deserves the hate, and there’s no link to any mental disorders or other stigmas. We can give people new, better words to replace the bad ones.
But I was honestly so tilted by this meme, because I expect better from the community. We should be better than this, I was shocked and betrayed and angry. So My first instinct was not to give people better words, it was to react.
But yeah I don’t have the luxury of not engaging with people who use these tropes. I have NPD and I’m ace, so I get hit with both of the stigmas of this word. It triggers Me in the moment, and it contributes to a societal culture that has abused Me time after time. It’s easy to DARVO a n*rcissist.
We are you capitalizing my and me?
Neopronouns
Poorly worded memes aside this really is one of the places on fediverse where you have no enemies. Lady Butterfly is pretty chill and empathetic when she’s actually running the account manually so I think she’d get it. I’ve seen you go to bat for other stigmatized people who to my knowledge you didn’t have an intersection in common with so I think you deserve that too.
As for everyone’s awareness of personality disorders, it’s all a work in progress right? Gotta meet people where they’re at. And I hope where you’re at feels better soon.
Yeah, Lady Butterfly is great every other time I’ve seen her, so I was really surprised. Did you say she’s automated her account?
Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, they’re not all true, as this community does have some people who are not allies. I’ve just received a private message from the mod of the community claiming that My reports against the ableist slur are false. I’m told I’ll be banned if I do it again. And I’ve also received… this hate speech
I really want to report the hate speech, but I’ve been clearly warned that I’ll be banned if do, so I don’t think I can. I don’t feel safe in this community right now at all.
Not fully automated, she just has scheduled posts. I’m pretty sure she’s behind the wheel for her discussion posts on c/womensstuff at the very least. She definitely leaves comments still
Thanks. I hope she sees My comment.
Hey can you not equate a myth about ego centrism and self obsession with a valid sexuality k thanks.
Narcissus was a 16 year old boy who just wanted to be a hunter. Much like the goddess Artemis, he wanted to live in the forest and eschew all romantic and sexual connections.
He may have preferred isolation because he was famous across all of the Hellenic world for his great beauty. And no matter how many people asked this teenage boy for his hand in marriage or to have intimate relations, he refused.
There was one man, Ameinias, who would propose marriage to Narcissus again and again. He wouldn’t take no for an answer. One day, narcissus got completely fed up with it, and gave Ameinias a sword. He told the sexual harasser to go kill himself.
Ameinias did as he was told, and stabbed himself in the heart with the sword. But before he died, he prayed to Nemesis, “Though he should love, let him not have what he loves!” Nemesis agreed.
Narcissus loved nobody, at least not romantically or erotically. But after Nemesis agreed to Ameinias’ prayer, he noticed his reflection in a pond. Recognising himself for the first time in the way other people saw him, he became infatuated. Narcissus had neither food nor drink for the rest of his life. He simply sat and stared at himself until he died.
When he died, the nymphs of the forest, who loved him, grew flowers around his body. Narcissus flowers.
Nemesis is the goddess of punishment for hubris. She punishes mortals who think they’re better than the gods. Why would she punish Narcissus?
My theory is: The ancient Greeks (and their gods) were so aphobic, they thought if someone didn’t want to have sex, it’s because they think they’re better than everyone else.
I recognise that aphobic Greeks and aphobic westerners have lied to you about this myth. But Narcissus is our history, as asexuals. This is what people thought of us for 2,000 years. And it needs to change.
First thing to remember: this is a myth
Second thing to remember: you are trying to play chicken with a retelling of an already ancient myth by Ovid (who isn’t fucking greek) who uses it as a way to explore concepts of obsession and - you guessed it! - narcissistic self involvement.
Literally, the original story makes no mention of echo, but a whole lot about the dude being a little bastard who was so self involved the only thing he could love was himself. Ovid added some things, but narcissus was never a woobie aroace, that shit is internet headcanon. Headcanons are fun, but don’t pretend this is scholarly fact.
Actually, all the stuff about Ameinias is from Conon’s Narrations, a Greek text from between 63 BC and 14 CE.
I’m gonna have to press X to doubt on you having read the “original story”, since it was an oral tradition that later got transcribed to text. I’ve cited both Ovid and Conon. Would you like to cite a specific scholar, or would you rather claim you personally went back in time 2,000+ years to talk to the original oral storytellers?
EDIT: Conon also wrote:
According to this ancient greek scholar, we need to have sex even if we don’t want to, out of deference to the gods. Cause they’re aphobes. And you’re making excuses for them.
Thespia was a city. You can’t claim all of Ancient Greece was aphobic because a single city specifically worshipped Eros
I think most of Ancient Greece was aphobic, because most Ancient Greeks hated Narcissus for “rejecting Eros”, as Conon puts it.
What’s your source for " most Ancient Greeks hated Narcissus"
I never said “I read the original story” so that straw argument doesn’t apply. Shockingly bad attempt for you to try on a written forum.
I was however, referring to the Parthenius Papyrus.
That’s currently the earliest known I believe, not necessarily the original.
Yes, sorry - thank you for that correction. I was imprecise.
Parthenius’ version doesn’t say a whole lot about Narcissus being a little bastard. It says one line:
That’s not really a source, it’s a completely subjective judgement. As a rule, I tend not to trust gossip about a person that says they’re bad, but not why. Because we don’t really know why Parthenius judged Narcissus. Conon said Narcissus was bad because he was asexual, so I’ll hazard a guess that Parthenius may have agreed. Because it’s literally the only clue we have about why Parthenius insulted Narcissus.
You do realise you’ve just said you won’t “believe” sources that don’t confirm your own bias
It might have something to do with the large number of narcissists running the world currently. Just a thought
Same way I hate pedofiles that hurt children.
I see you’re commenting from lemmy.blahaj.zone. You realise conservatives say the exact same thing about you and Me because we’re trans, as you’re saying about Me because I have NPD?
Hatred is a double edged sword and if you use it on people in the community, you’ll cut your own nose off.
I said who hurt children, if you are able to control yourself and not hurt others with your npd then everything is fine but if you show a history of abuse then you wouldn’t be welcome in my circle. I even have empathy for people with issues they have to combat themselves to not hurt others. Pedos, npd, suicidal people.
Mental disorders don’t make people abuse kids. You’re operating off a mistaken prejudice against neurodivergence.
Yes they can.
People have free will. Hurting other people is a choice that people make. Having a mental disorder is not a choice, it’s something that happens to people because of genetics or chemistry or trauma.