What’s the lie about Ukraine? That one seems pretty cut n dry (for international relations anyway)

Damn, this got me though. Absolutely poisoned my thoughtwell. Now I’m seeing how Cumuo being in the Epstein files giving way to Mandami; the absolute anthesis of DJT… It really is just one big back n forth now, forever ))<>((

The American Experiment is cooked.

This is a hypothesis without any analysis. There is no logical reason to believe that satellites make revolutionary change impossible.

Absolutely, I’m just some person, but the point is that the world is so interconnected and defined that any shake up of any first world countries makes revolutionary change from things such as civil war extremely unlikely. Not to mention the other 1st world countries will insert their troops to wrestle power as well. Communication is faster than ever which means that responses and action can be faster than ever. It is a no win scenario without strong international relations, political understanding, and again - leadership.

With how strong of an influence DJT and the psyops had on Americans, would arresting DJT and more been seen as a political power play and caused a civil war then

Oh man, wouldn’t want to have open conflict! That would be terrible. Better to just let a fascist take over without any resistance.

That would be my position if I were un their shoes. An open conflict where the Democrats in charge have no choice but to use the U.S. military to fight off American citizens (trying to get DJT in power), or try to persuade Americans to see who DJT and their party really are, who are going to try to use the U.S. military to fight off American citizens, by choice. The former would have left many dead, and the latter, if won, would have saved many, along with possibility of being able to prosecute the troublemakers (DJT n Co). They completely failed - you say by choice because they’re on the same team, I say by psyops because there are external forces also trying to succeed (in their own way). Again, I do not believe that they are on the same conceptual team, but certainly the same sport with some of the same sponsors.

give me a quick list of what Republicans have done for America when they are in power

Ok, I like these, but damn how far the party has fallen from doing things for actual Americans like this; whereas the other cop has always been like this?

It’s not Democratic leadership that did those things. It was grassroots threats to legitimately disrupt the entire country. It’s always been this way. The 8-hour work day was won with general strikes that shut the country down. You don’t win by voting. You win by fighting. History has shown us this over and over and over again.

It also wasn’t the majority of Democrats fighting against these things, it was the majority of Republicans. Republicans (as you say, the bad cop) are obviously almost always against these laws. Ultimately it was and continues to be Democratic majority that signs these into law in most cases, especially in recent years. Though, I understand it doesn’t matter if it’s all a charade, the point of a Democratic system is that it should be We The People and the politicians respond to the people, in which Democrats have and usually do.

And yet, corporate profits are better under Democrats! Shocker, right?

This is both true but… tough. Corporate profits really sored during the Bush era in the early 2000s. Then we get Obama and Biden terms which seemed like healthy steady growth. The absolute biggest corporate profit jump comes from post-covid / AI bubble times under Biden. DJT is “tough” for corporations, but not because he / their administration, but because his whole purpose is to sow chaos, misdirection, and confusion.

Both parties are driven by the maintenance and expansion of global capitalism and they only give to the people as a concession

Yes - both parties support Capitalism. I support regulated Capitalism. We have been in a time of unregulated Capitalism for too long and it’s now capsizing the political structure meant to hold it together. I believe Capitalism itself is a byproduct of human evolution, will always exist in some form due to sociopathy and psychopathy (which I believe are evolutionary traits), and has to be regulated in some form. Since I believe it will always exist, and should consumerism win out over humanity, we’re likely doomed anyway. I embrace it but with the caveat that it has to be fought, but it’s too big to be fought by you, me, or grassroots, but from within the political system it runs on.

And the US vetoed the UN resolution condemning the glorification of Nazis under Obama and under Biden.

What does that mean exactly? The vote was like “Nazis are bad: Yes or No” and the U.S. was like “Nah”? Was it supposed to be like German laws that would fine individuals for their Nazism expressions or something? I don’t understand the point of the vote or what’s it’s impact was supposed to be, even after looking into it. It seems for all purposes, performative, and sponsored by Russia on some of the occasions?

It’s not a psyop. It’s America.

It’s a portion of undereducated America stricken from a system that’s been starving their education specifically for this purpose. These come from mostly Red states. I can’t imagine what hoops one would have to jump through to not realize that America is, and has been, a target from external hostile countries. The psyops used our unregulated social media and to pose as actual Americans and drive discussions specifically targeting those uneducated Americans. The endgoal (ofc in my opinion) is Oligarchy and finalized corporate power, though it’s my understanding you believe that this has been the case for a long time, but I believe that it’s been a growing issue and not the defacto.

The Americans states where there are diverse groups of people and educated people aren’t rooting for torturing immigrants or shooting protestors. These are the folx who weren’t targets of the psyops, because they’re more difficult to rally (for this particular side, not for a cause in similar fashion).

Just go research prisons and parole around the world. Compare with America. It’s a hellscape here.

Yeah? Is this all we’re comparing to places like Russia or China? It just boils down to prison systems and not their much longer stances against personal freedoms of expression, violence, genocide, bombings, and collusion? 250 years compared to centuries? Cynical sure, but I guess the U.S. had some catching up to do, but at least it’s making better progress than those equally large countries.

If that’s is to be true, then why not try to pick the fascist dominance that’s going to do the least harm?

Wow. I mean, if this is your position, you’re well and truly gone.

I think this is where we are, yes. I’m not sure how much further we can take our arguments as I understand your position but disagree on it’s compete integration of “good cop, bad cop” and how to fight it (the system we’re in). I do appreciate the discussion though; take care m8

I don’t disagree that those things have happened, exist, and are bad, but you again seem to think that change comes from a grassroots movement to tear the whole system down. We are wayyyyyyyy past that. This isn’t 18th century Europe. We have satellites in space that can connect to anywhere in the world in milliseconds. Without a full destructive reset, there is no tearing the system down. It has to change from within and it has to change over time.

Oh come on. You can’t be serious right now! ALL of the evidence is against this claim.

Who are you even comparing the Democrats to? Again… a 2 party system… So if we have to pick one, which yeah we fucking do because we are the minority voice, yeah I’m picking the one that’s not going to ship my friends to camps and try to become a dictator. That’s the comparison. It starts there and stops there until a 3rd party puts their hat in and uses the law to fight Corporations.

Civil Rights were put into law by Democrats. (HUGE grassroots movement from the civil rights leaders of the time, but it’s the politicians who codified it so that we have what we have today)

LGBTQ+ Rights? Democrats.

Healthcare? Democrats.

Social Security and Social Services? Democrats.

Technological security and advances? Democrats.

The U.S. sees the most jobs under Democrats.

Just give me a quick list of what Republicans have done for America when they are in power. Seriously, you keep railing on America and Democrats, you keep saying that both parties are the same. Give me a rundown of all the good things Republicans have done for Americans when they are in power.

I will legitimately bet you can’t. Maybe Roosevelt, but hell that was a long time ago wasn’t it? Where’s the party gone since then?

Kamala had no plan to prevent any of this. If she had won, the BEST case scenario is that it would have delayed this chaos by 4 years.

And maybe we could have had some progressive policies as well too which would have been nice. A few less deaths. Again, I just don’t know how you’re not comparing this to the Republicans. Like, like it or not, American is a 2 party system and to say that Democrats and Republicans are the same is completely missing all the progress Democrats have done. and how much destruction Republicans have done and/or tried to reverse.

We don’t know what ICE would have been like under Kamala, but I sure hope it would have had less actual Nazis and less actual white supremists leading them. I’d like to think that we’d have the Jan 6th people still held accountable. A lot less pardons of real criminal fraudsters. Yeah, it’s really hard to say what the U.S. would have been like under Kamala.

It’s not a question of 3rd party leadership, it’s a question of fascist dominance.

We can’t have a 3rd party leadership.

We can’t have Democratic leadership.

We can’t have Republicans leadership.

All we can have is fascist dominance.

If that’s is to be true, then why not try to pick the fascist dominance that’s going to do the least harm? A non-choice is always a choice for the worse of the two fascists - there’s no getting around that. The people who want the fascist that will do the least harm votes so, and the people who want the fascist to the do the most harm votes so, and it’s the people who don’t vote that unintentionally give the fascist who wants to do the most harm an edge/advantage. You may dance around it morally all you want.

On a sidenote, shoutout to both Biden, Obama, and a number of other Democrats for not being in the Epstein files. We all knew Clinton would be, that sleezy fuck, but I haven’t seen a single comment defending him - it’s all just “burn em all” which is cool.

They literally talked about Trump being bad, and we watched them do absolutely fucking nothing about it except blame voters for failing to vote enough.

Yeah, that does suck. Difficult to put myself in their shoes in this situation. The U.S. was a powder keg for J6 - psyops in full effect. The next 4 years should have been preparing for the worst. With how strong of an influence DJT and the psyops had on Americans, would arresting DJT and more been seen as a political power play and caused a civil war then? Would it have had been better for the Democrats to try to show America who DJT really is and have them choose, to get a room temperature of the U.S., then prosecute him? They were telling us all along: Hey, this dude is a real POS. Hey, here’s Project 2025 that he’s going to put into place if he becomes President. Hey, this dude has strong ties with known Pedophile Jeffery Epstein.

The fact that all of this was out in the open and many states were still Red shows just how effective the psyops was to begin with and how entrenched a real [bad] fascist opposition had become. Now that things are running it’s course, the Epstein files are being released. We are seeing how DJT is dismantling every aspect of traditional America (from Social Systems to International Support to Education). Now that we’re seeing Project 2025 put into action, there are folx who are changing their tune. Is them not liking DJT going to stop bombings, prison slavery, or genocide? No, but we’re a long ways off from doing that now. America is one step forward and 2 steps back because of division politics.

I can’t tell if you’re Anti-America or Anti-Humanity. There’s no country the size of the U.S that is any better and arguably they’re all much worse and have been for a lot longer.

All the things about bombings and collusion are true, but you’re not changing it from the outside. The civil rights movement had leaders and organization and from it came change. If you want to see the same change, then that’s how it has to happen: Leadership and Organization. At that point you either join in as a 3rd party to fight the system politically or you fight the system physically. Politically has the best chance to promote change. Physically has the best chance to be dominated by a separate, and worse fascist regime.

What practical solutions do you have outside educating people of the flaws of the system?

The Democratic Party have been the only party to drive positive change in this country. Positive social change. Positive economic change. Positive international change. Are they perfect? No - there is no perfect system. Chasing perfection is a fools errand.

To think that voting is the least powerful of Democratic expression is (I believe to be) an absurd statement. Local elections matter. Country elections matter. You’re not changing the system from the outside, a system that’s ran ~250 years. There’s no hope of a civil war beating the U.S. Military Complex. What will happen instead, just like the CIA did/does, is 3rd parties will join in to continue the fighting for their own gain.

The only change to the U.S. system so that the least amount of people die should have come from within.

Also, If they’re all fascists, and we literally have a choice between the fascist who at least has a backing party history of social and economic growth vs one whose going to try to become a defacto ruler; the choice should have been obvious.

The problems are ours and ours alone.

Then we are ultimately fucked. Corporate internet is programming masses due to being absolutely unregulated.

The Democrats can’t save us.

There’s no change, no movement without leadership and organization. Between the 2 parties, the better leadership comes from the Democratic Party. The better organization comes from the Democratic Party. Until a 3rd party finds leadership, finds the organization to make the push for change, then they are it. Hopefully the future has that, but the past election was between what we’re seeing now and what could have been.

I certainly don’t think the only reason not to vote for Kamala is because bots, but to not think that bots aren’t diving division on Social media (which Lemmy is) I think is not living in 2026. The internet is not what it used to be.

The options during that election were 2 choices. We knew what would happen if Trump was elected, the writing was on the wall, Project 2025 was published, and people on Lemmy were still arguing about why not to vote for Kamala.

Convincing people to not vote for Kamala in arguably one of the most important elections was and is asinine, and shit was all over Lemmy during the election run. Give me a corporate Democrat over this shitshow any day, and the shitshow is only going to get worse.

how are we ever going to deal with the contradictions that drive our infighting?

There’s a difference between discussing conflicts and telling people not to vote because of those conflicts.

Since you, and many like you, don’t seem to have any sense of reality,

I don’t know, maybe we talk about respect to start? You just come into a conversation and start looking down your nose at others assuming that they’re not living in reality because they have a different opinion than you. What a bad way to start a conversation. What a bad way to win someone over. What a bad way to run a community.

I feel like I shouldn’t need to clarify, but just to be clear, I don’t think you’re trying to “win my opinion over” or “running a[ny] community” but the point is that from a non-conservative standpoint (since I don’t know you’re political spectrum, but are on Lemmy) these are things that I think should be persistent. Otherwise, it’s just going to push people away and/or people won’t even engage in the message.

It’s almost like bots really have taken over the net. Combined with corporate controlled media (even websites, not just traditional media).

Maybe much of what you see if a Psyops to divide people to keep them infighting.

As the internet has become more accessible, anonymity on the internet has become less and less fun. Trolling used to be so… less destructive than it is now. Some take what they see at face value and will even spread it if it aligns with what they think but not what they’d say or do.

Lemmy isn’t immune to this either. I don’t know how many anti-Kamala threads I saw on Lemmy during the election trying to convince people to not vote - what a joke.

100% - You’re suggesting to fight the U.S. Military in power. History has shown that nobody “wins” against the American Military. (inb4 some obscure factoid). Even in Vietnam or Afghanistan, it was just destruction - nobody won anything except the investors.

There’s 0 leadership down in the trenches too. So ontop of suggesting to fight the U.S. Military, you’re suggesting to do so as unorganized. That’s going to be easily spun by media as terrorist cells. Sure, they’re throwing around “domestic terrorist” already, but it hits differently when they only see 1 side dying. Once there are actual gunfights in the street is when they can rally support from their base for actual action.

We have to wait for midterms. There’s been so much bad press regarding Trumps 2nd term that regaining control of the Senate is doable, albeit difficult. In the chance that the Senate is held, then there’s a chance to restore order and bring people to justice. Midterms is going to be impossible to avoid for those who participate so it’s going to be impossible to avoid the onslaught of bullshit that ensues and will be a wake up call for the people not on Lemmy (or Reddit) and still on Facebook or X (Boomers).

Personally, I think a Civil War in inevitable. I don’t think the Trump Admins are going to recede power. I don’t think Dems are going to get a majority in the Senate, and I think things are going to get worse. That being said, Midterms is a chance to find leadership and a chance for actual States to break out of this charade.

it just comes across like a trollish comment on the internet, a random attack from a stranger who might not only not be doing it for your best interest but even to be hurtful for their own amusement.

And Only time and repetition will be able to tell if it’s in good faith or bad faith.

The same people who make Art.

The same people who dream of Space.

The same people who Work Forces.

This dude doesn’t look like Secret Service at all. The source is a Leftist fox-news-like, for profit website with info sourced from Elon Musks Grifter Farm (X), of all places.

This really the news and sources we’re accepting here? Just so we can make circle-jerk comments?

And ya know what, Ima be real and take it even further because it’s a trend I’m seeing. A site with low-effort Quality Assurance is prone to be infiltrated by agitators trying to disguise themselves as in groups both for profit and division politics - this is one of those sites and sources. It’s shoddy journalism from a for-profit “journalism” aggregator meant to incite anger and promote interaction, and Lemmy is full of this shit.

I mean hell, the commenters just eat it up too. Jumps in to repeat the same sentiment as all the other commentors in different formats. Lemmy has got to keep the content cycling somehow I guess, nobody is getting on Reddit case for the same bullshit, so I guess it can fly here?

It doesn’t matter, they going to do the same thing they’ve done in every election: Deny the results. This time though, it’s their last run of power and they know just as well that if Dems get majority that 1) DJT will almost certainly be impeached and 2) There will probably be criminal investigations to follow.

The question is: Was DJT and his elites able to convince enough Nazis to join ICE so they can overthrow the election results come midterms? Will America just accept the results if Dems don’t sweep and get a majority?

It very much seems like a setup to try and agitate the left into their own Jan 6th.

If the Dems don’t sweep midterms and get majority after the shitshow that’s been this administration, they just might get it.

Then it’ll be dismissed because of Jan 6th.

I’m happy with strong small communities.

Same, I sure hope Geocities lasts!

Yeah, you’re right. Maybe we can go door to door and ask some questions to verify who is and who isn’t a Nazi. Then, once satisfied, we can group them into camps for easier management - away from common society.

Does that sound good so far?

Excuse me, but this is a Mastodon astroturf thread. Just close your eyes and hate Bluesky.

Linux wasn’t consumer friendly until Ubuntu, Mac was an obvious alternative for average consumers in the early 00s. These things only pick up traction when the average user finds value in it. It’s literally about the lowest common detonator user. That’s just how consumerism works.

Does it matter when he can just pay the judges?

Solid logic, I can’t argue with that.

Yeah, remember when Luigi really changed the world? No? How about Tyler Robinson?

Mass civil unrest is the only way.

If they are able to spin ICE assassins, they just as well could be able to drum up more support than civil unrest can match. They’re already having a difficult time finding and retaining their coalition. We know they’re going to decry the midterms. It is a war of attrition right now, and doxing ICE is just bait.