Nina spitting truths as always. She’s on fire recently, so follow her if you’re not doing so already.
To be clear; everyone working in my government, particularly after today, is a Nazi, or someone who works for Nazis. Do you know what we call people who worked for the Nazis, in the Nazi government? Yes, that is correct, Nazis.
So Machado is certainly not gonna feel lonely on the list of people on my TV who are definitely Nazis.
Oh, was that too harsh? Are you feeling bad for the good career civil servants, working for the literal fucking Nazis, who I have just impuned? Cool, let’s refer back to that part where I said I was surrounded by people who openly recognize that this is fascism, and ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY refuse to accept what that actually means.
We call people, who worked for the Nazi Party, in the Nazi government, Nazis. Nobody says “the Nazi government and the career civil servants who hated them but stayed.”
“They’ll just find someone else.”
Then let them. “I took the job at the concentration camp because I was sure Hitler would find someone else” was not a good defense in court last time, and it won’t be this time either.
Does this mean that if a communist party was suddenly running the government then all state employees would suddenly flip from being nazis to communists?
The funny thing is it seems most commentors in this post are civilians.
I am a state employee, and I am keenly aware of my role in reinforcing the state mechanisms.
My work directly supports and maintains a small subsection of gears of this overall system.
I get paid in taxpayer money, I have the capability of living a “middle class” life.
I donate some of my earnings to charities and fundraisers for various undisclosed civil rights and activists.
I love doing the contents of my work, And I enjoy the knowledge that my work contributes to a better experience for civilians in my state.
But I am keenly aware that I am reinforcing the gears even if the work I do has little association to any detrimental effects to the people.
I am at the bottom of the ladder, following orders, providing services to improve the experience for civilians, reinforcing the gears.
I do it for the paycheck.
I am complicit in that regards.
All statements and opinions in this post are not reflective of my employer.
It really depends what a person actually does for the state, at what level of government they operate. Especially in a country as large as the US. Many states are larger than European nations, and have larger GDPs. If you work for the state level Department of Environmental Protection in Vermont, you’re not exactly contributing to the same “machine” that’s killing the Republic
Do you know what we call the person that distributes soup to the homeless at a nazi event?
Should we thank you for thousands of cops deaths and ICE deaths committed each year that you loved collaborating in the
homocidesqualified immunity of your state?Ah, the tag ‘Knee Jerk Flame Fueler’ saving me a lot of trouble here
Clocks can answer for themselves.
Do you have anymore nuance to apologize for?
I was just following orders, was never accepted as a defence in the Nürnberg Trials, Never Forget
Except it was. It absolutely was. It worked for over 99% of Nazi’s who got off with absolutely zero consequences and continued to live their lives without even really being ostracized from their communities until they died from old age. Only a few high level commanders were ever punished. Pretty much none of the jackboot soldiers faced any charges.
“Never Forget”? What a fucking joke. People already “forgot” the truth of what happened in favor of a pretty lie that terrible people always face justice.
The Nuremberg trials were also a fucking disgrace that exonerated most of the nazis and prosecuted a few high ranking officials that were not useful enough to be part of Operation Paperclip or put onto one of the many Nazi ratlines, or a stay behind operation in Gladio.
There’s a reason the nazis fled to the west, they knew the middle of Berlin was where justice stopped.
What if i stayed, acting like i worked but not really doing anything? Blocking a Nazis spot, taking my salary out of their budget. Maybe even sabotaging. Lets all do that, collectively. Covering eachother by telling how good a job we are doing and so on…
The Simple Sabotage Field Manual actually has a lot of recommendations for this. Here’s a part of it, just to give you an idea (in a spoiler block because it’s loooooong)
Excerpt
(1) Make mistakes in quantities of material when you are copying orders. Confuse similar names. Use wrong addresses.
(2) Prolong correspondence with government bureaus.
(3) Misfile essential documents.
(4) In making carbon copies, make one too few, so that an extra copying job will have to be done.
(5) Tell important callers the boss is busy or talking on another telephone.
(6) Hold up mail until the next collection.
(7) Spread disturbing rumors that sound like inside dope.
(d) Employees
(1) Work slowly. Think out ways to increase the number of movements necessary on your job: use a light hammer instead of a heavy one, try to make a small wrench do when a big one is necessary, use little force where considerable force is needed, and so on.
(2) Contrive as many interruptions to your work as you can: when changing the material on which you are working, as you would on a lathe or punch, take needless time to do it. If you are cutting, shaping or doing other measured work, measure dimensions twice as often as you need to. When you go to the lavatory, spend a longer time there than is necessary. Forget tools so that you will have to go back after them.
(3) Even if you understand the language, pretend not to understand instructions in a foreign tongue.
(4) Pretend that instructions are hard to understand, and ask to have them repeated more than once. Or pretend that you are particularly anxious to do your work, and pester the foreman with unnecessary questions.
(5) Do your work poorly and blame it on bad tools, machinery, or equipment. Complain that these things are preventing you from doing your job right.
(6) Never pass on your skill and experience to a new or less skillful worker. “(7) Snarl up administration in every possible way. Fill out forms illegibly so that they will have to be done over; make mistakes or omit requested information in forms.
(8) If possible, join or help organize a group for presenting employee problems to the management. See that the procedures adopted are as inconvenient as possible for the management, involving the presence of a large number of employees at each presentation, entailing more than one meeting for each grievance, bringing up problems which are largely imaginary, and so on.
(9) Misroute materials.
(10) Mix good parts with unusable scrap and rejected parts.
huh! Looks like i am very well qualified :D Like i never did anything else.
There’s a name for that tactic. It’s called a slowdown (strike) ;)
Your appearance of compliance leads others to actual compliance.
Not likely. There’s a reason why the Simple Sabotage Field Manual recommends exactly what klay1 was talking about (see my other comment in this thread)
That manual was published in 1944, when significant workplace malfeasance could be readily concealed. A worker in that time could easily hamper far more production than they were forced to produce to maintain their cover.
With modern workplace supervision, surveillance and record keeping designed specifically to identify and eliminate such “inefficiencies”, our modern saboteur cannot hope to achieve results anywhere close to those of his great-grandfather. The amount of production he has to achieve to maintain his cover greatly exceeds the loss of production from his efforts. Your great grandfather could throw a wrench in the gears and play dumb; you’ll be caught and prosecuted if you try the same, so you have to resort to less effective efforts.
With such extensive workplace surveillance in place, every worker in a unit can be a “saboteur”, and productivity from that unit can still be positive. They can churn out production even with every single worker actively trying to slow it.
Better for our would-be saboteur to resign. He sets the example for his former co-workers, while also saddling them with his work. His absence damages unit productivity more than he could achieve through active sabotage.
The tactics you are recommending are about 60 years out of date.
We’ve introduced 60 years of middle management. This stuff is still valid.
“Valid”
Some people on this site are so divorced from reality it’s scary. Nuance? Never heard of her.
And I’m sure that anyone potentially replying to my comment will spew some bs like “if you work for a ‘nazi’ in any way, you’re a nazi” and to those people I say that it is clear you have lived your entire life without having had to deal with real life dilemmas and compromises. Must be nice to feel entitled to dictate who gets to provide for their family and who have to quit or they are deemed a nazi by you. What a humble, sane and intelligent mindset to have.
Demanding people in an unstable country to quit their job is the extremist leftie version of “just stop being poor”.
Some people don’t have the luxury to quit, especially if they have a home and a family to feed and bills to pay, which is the case for most people.
I think that what you’re realizing is that lots of the Nazis in Germany were likely we’ll meaning people stuck in a bad situation who kept coming to work because they needed to provide for their families and pay bills and maintain their homes.
And do you know how history refers to those people?
And do you know how history refers to those people?
How they’re referred to does not imply that they ought to be referred to that way.
History refers to them as Germans. I’m not playing that game with you. My country share a border with Germany. We know the history very well an we know the hard work the Germans put in after the war was over, as well as the hard work many of them put in to oppose the system while they were under Hitler.
It is the same with everyday Russians who have no control over what their leader is doing to their neighbors.
And now, Americans, stuck in a system that has been stolen by a skinwalker.
I don’t want people to starve and go homeless just because some terminally online, holier than thou people online think that opposing a regime is as easy as to just quit your job.
My mom’s cousin (now deceased) was Danish. I wore a shirt showing a unified Germany back in the early 90s and she reacted with a disdainful remark along the lines of “Look at them, so proud of their big unified country.” Clearly no love lost for the Germans from her! So it’s notable to me that a Dane (judging by the instance) would stand up for the Germans now.
Side note, I apologize that my country’s fascist government is threatening to annex Greenland from you. If they try it, feel free to shoot first and ask questions later with my regards!
It’s understandable that some of the older generations who most likely lived through the occupation of Denmark wouldn’t be the biggest fans of Germany. I remember as a child watching a news coverage of an anniversary memorial of the 1864 battle at Dybbøl Mølle where Denmark was utterly humiliated by the Germans and there was this very old guy from the area who was old enough to have had family members harmed by in that battle and he had so much hatred for the Germans still. Meanwhile everybody else saw 1864 as a part of Danish history that we no longer held any grudges over.
I grew up in a Denmark where WW2 was talked about all the time in history classes, in radio shows and documentaries and movies. The through line in all of these different forums and medias is that there was a general push for understanding how these things can happen and how we have to see each other as human beings because the minute we dehumanize the one we don’t like, we open ourselves up to becoming the very monster we hated.
I remember listening to a radio program back in the early 2010s where a holocaust survivor was talking about exactly this. That we cannot forget that the nazis were humans too and we cannot treat Hitler like he wasn’t human. I held on to that program in my psyche hence forward.
Der Untergang is in my opinion the most important ww2 movie ever made for that exact reason.
And this is also the difference between how Europe and especially Germany and eastern Europe portrays ww2 vs how America portrays it in media.
America always makes movies about how they are the heroes with big gun, noble soldiers who sacrifices their lives for others. Band of Brothers is an amazing show and I love it to death.
But European ww2 movies are about the human soul in crisis and in conflict with itself. The Germans have always shown a very unique and rare grace about that war and how they portrays it. It is always raw, honest and thought provoking to watch their war movies. Also their post war movies. Eastern Europeans also have a very raw and honest take on the war as its biggest victims. Theirs is a story of immense pain and the destruction of innocence. How it makes you a monster in the end if you don’t find the strength to withstand it. Come and See is a great example of that.
But yeah, when it comes to the Germans they have taken responsibility in way no other nation has and they are not fucking around with that shit. There is also the fact that they managed to rebuild their nation from rubble both figuratively and literally and become the strongest economy in Europe. That is impressive. They have been humble and held on to the concept of responsibility with an iron grip for all the years I have been alive and they have suffered in their own right for what they did to Europe. In 8th grade my class read a novel about German refugees post ww2 and how they were treated in Denmark. The author was invited to my school to have a q and a with my class which was very eye opening for 14 year old me. Movies have been made in more recent decades about the suffering of the German refugees. There is a part of the cemetery in my town that is a dedicated memorial to German refugees who died here.
The tone towards the Germans has been a gradual, earned shift from hatred and hurt to acceptance and friendship because we were all willing to look at the full picture of that war and acknowledge the humanity in everybody regardless of nationality and ethnicity. I have walked the ruins of Auschwitz and Birkenau and visited Schindlers’ factory as part of my education. I have read books, seen movies, documentaries and listened to witness testimonies. My dad remembers the day we were freed from the German occupation. People running the streets with our flag and yelling we are free we are free.
In Denmark we have acknowledged our own resistance against the Germans and our cooperation or even collaborations with the Germans during the occupation and the terribly fine line we had to balance too keep them happy while still holding on to our values as a nation. We helped many many jews escape to Sweden. Some delivered them to the Germans. Some died for our freedom, others gave it away willingly for profit or safety. It is never simple. My Mother in law’s grandfather was a policeman. He and his colleagues were captured by the Germans and sent to concentration camps where they were forced to burn dead jews in ovens. Those who survived were returned to Denmark after the war and they were never the same.
Germany today is not Germany in the 40s. Most of us in Europe experienced a complex trauma where we both did good and bad things during and after the war. Every nation’s experience was similar but different in small or big ways. It was the willingness to forgive and build bridges between us that changed things for the better and laid the groundwork for a Dane like me being able to defend my German neighbors today.
I genuinely hold no grudges against Germany. I see nazi Germany and Germany-Germany as two differnet things. They are not perfect. No nation is, but their willingness to do better and take responsibility and change is something they don’t get enough credit for. To come out on top like they have, a much more principled and reflected nation that has been a net positive for Europe the past many decades is absolutely awe inspiring.
And while America did their part in the war and definitely deserve their praise for that, they have not reflected at all on anything in the decades since, but gassed themselves up to believe they are the greatest nation on earth, often neglecting to remember that overcoming the nazi regime was a united effort from multiple nations and not just one.
You’re absolutely right about American arrogance. It’s always been a thing with us, thinking we’re the greatest country in the world, and predictably, it’s led us right where every other empire that thought they were invincible ended up, into suffering and ruin. I’m not sorry to see the American empire fall, but I am sorry that so many will have to suffer because of it.
For what it is worth, I do believe the American people will be okay in the end. Europe, I’m also pretty confident will be okay. In fact, if we look past all the scary and infuriating shit, I’m friggin hyped about us finally starting to build a stronger and more independent Europe even though it’s like rebuilding a house on fire, lol. We have overcome worse shit and I am generally very optimistic about the future. Even if it’s gonna suck for awhile.
All these changes are also gonna take longer than you and I are alive so the shift from the old world order to the newest world constellation, is gonna be slow as a glacier and very boring and frustratingly unremarkable in our lifetime.
It’s easy to fall into doomsday thinking so I choose to be optimistic whenever I’m not triggered into a turbo rage at the newest retarded statement that monkey man spews from the oval office. Lol.
But yeah, I have hope for Americans still. It’s going to suck for awhile, but this bs won’t last forever and there will be better days to come for the American people too.
Thank you for your optimism, friend. I worry about the far-right groups that are gaining power all throughout Europe, as well. I hope you guys do a better job keeping them out of power than we have!
Been reading this thread interested as someone whose loved one works for municipal IT. On that basis I sympathize with your perspective, but I have to take issue with this statement:
And now, Americans, stuck in a system that has been stolen by a skinwalker.
I wouldn’t say so. This is the system that we have. The executive office has been erasing checks and balances since WWII. The Heritage Foundation and other SIGs have been pushing white supremacy for 200 years. ICE was created by Bush Jr. after after a mob riot in Florida disrupted a recount that could have given the presidency to Al Gore. Generously this is when we can say our democracy first proved flawed, but the rationalizations and mechanisms go back to our founding. We haven’t been hijacked, we are the monster and have been for some time.
That is fair. I have never thought America was a perfect country before trump and have always had massive issues with how things have been run and the - in my opinion - bad values that it has been nurturing. However, I did see a will to move in a better direction where the country was starting to focus more on its people’s welfare and trump has more than undone that progress and been a pathetic counter reaction to those positive changes.
It was never a perfect country but this development is kinda the worst version of the worst initiatives the country has made in recent decades.
For what it’s worth I do feel a lot of sympathy for the American people who are stuck in this nightmare. I am the absolute angriest at the American nation I have ever been in my life and that’s why I have to hold on to the fact that a pretty significant number of Americans are not okay with the direction their nation is going in.
I hope it makes sense to you. I just imagine that a lot of Americans currently feels more alienated by their own nation’s conduct than usual. I sure would even if many of the things going on are pretty much business as usual, but being expressed by a monkey who’s been given a fully loaded machine-gun.
I do understand, and it does make sense to me.
Thank you, friend!
don’t come here with your reason and compassion, it’ll fall for deaf ears and you’ll lose your hope in humanity.
I am starting to realize that, lol.
I think the funniest part is that I was being down voted for calling out an obvious anti-Denmark propaganda troll in a thread full of people talking about how America is a nazi nation. And yet so many people completely fall for an obvious MAGA troll who is spreading the exact same disinformation and slander about my country that trump and his minions were spreading last year in and attempt to make Americans supportive of an invasion of Greenland.
That is endlessly amusing to me. Really shows you that none of the people here are serious nor have any worthwhile opinions about the world they live in. Horseshoe theory is alive and well.
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Okay troll.
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No one said it was easy.
No, but it is very easy to be a keyboard warrior and call regular people nazis because they don’t leave their jobs.
22 years of “doing my job” btw:
Yeah because the only job available in America is being an ICE agent. You got me. Damn.
Which job ends US imperialism?
I asked you what history has called them. I get that you don’t like the answer, but it doesn’t change the truth.
I did give you an answer but you don’t like the answer and want to hold on to your måde up version of reality. I don’t expect someone like you to have any remotely nuanced understanding of how Europe understands its own history nor how its relationship with Germans has mended the past 80 years to the point that no one calls regular Germans who worked regular jobs during nazi Germany for nazis. That is such a childish and simplistic understanding of our history. But I get it, you don’t want to be nuanced. You want to live in your black and white world view. Enjoy that. You fit right in with MAGA.
Lmao, you had to get into the personal attacks.
Just because you forgave the Nazis doesn’t mean that everyone else needs to.
Some of them were even heros, like Shindler, who people forget was an SS officer.
The complexities of how business owners had to deal with Germany under the war is no small thing. I cannot help but roll my eyes when people talk about ww2 with confident ignorance and black and white thinking. It was a very complex time and people like Schindler is a great example of how complex it was for many.
I for one think it was smart that some used their status within the regime to help the oppressed. Whether they were actively part of the nazi party or just trapped providing for the Germans to survive, I still think those who managed to risk everything to do some good for people who weren’t even seen as people, were brilliant.
In the same vein, the resistance wasn’t purely good and righteous. Many of them became violent criminals who continued looking for excuses to murder people even after the war ended. It was like they were addicted to the hate and the chase. Like for them it wasn’t even about justice. Just an excuse to harm and feel justified.
I am no scholar when it comes to ww2 and frankly the subject has always bored me because that was the only subject I learned about in history class, but one thing I appreciate to have learned from all those boring lessons is that people are complex and no one is fully good or fully evil.
People used to understand the nuances of a person. Nowadays, especially online, too many people seem to be completely obsessed with purity testing and the standards are inhuman. Not even Jesus would be able to pass the bar for what terminally online losers think other people should do to be considered a good person.
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Of course she deserves better. That’s why every one wants ice agents dead, dipshit.
Not everyone, seeing by how 22 years they kept ICE alive.
Okay troll.
This two-word comment tells me more than your earlier diatribe about nuance.
I was responding to a lunatic who was babbling about everything else but my points. No need to try and reason with a troll like that. Likewise with you. Bye.
Btw, look at the guy’s username and date of profile creation. This is an obvious MAGA troll, trying to spread anti Danish hate online so that people will support the invasion of Greenland. I’m danish btw. I’m pretty sure it is no coincidence this person sought out my comment and started going off on insane tangents.
You guys can all sit and talk about nazis but if you support this user, you’re supporting trump’s attempt to invade an ally.
All your points can be summarized with one word: Collaborator.
Indeed, this reads like not enough interaction with the real world, or possibly just anarchist thesis? Nina sounds like an extremist anarchist, so I guess it’s par for the course.
People like that scare me because to me they are no differnet than the Maga people they hate so much same black and white thinking, made up scenarios, misinformation and a total rejection of the real world and dehumanization of others. It is so fucked up.
yeah but also some people need to read the sidebar
“They’ll just find someone else…” and send the objector to the front. Not trying to be an apologist for these people, but just “quitting” was probably was a risky choice.
A good friend of mine is quitting their (once) dream fed job, counting down the remainder until their last day. They work for the government to enforce engineering safety standards, but can no longer stomach the gutting of safety regulations that their department manages. Upon raising ethical concerns, they got dragged into a room with lawyers who relayed a parable about ethics. The lesson was: Be “a good soldier” and ignore safety regulations if you’re told to do so.
I go to work everyday and feel like a mail clerk in the Death Star
- My friend to me
Damn, mail clerk at the Death Star sounds like an awesome job, and low-pressure compared to other jobs at the Death Star. Low chance of being strangled by Vader, and you get to watch a planet blow up if you’re into that, which, if you worked at the Death Star, you probably would be.
My philosophy allows for distinction between death squads and meter maids.
The guy who scrubbed Hitler’s toilet was not culpable in the same manner as the asshole who sat on it.
The guy who scrubbed Hitler’s toilets isn’t remembered at all, except by the collective noun “Nazi”.
They weren’t “The Nazis and the guy who scrubbed Hitler’s toilets”, just “Nazis”. You’re philosophy may allow for any distinction it likes, the lessons of history: just “Nazi”. For reference I linked the Wikipedia page to the Nazi party please observe the title isn’t “The Nazi Party and Hitler’s toilet guy” just “The nazi Party”
And that doesn’t invite any reconsideration on your part. Eighty million of the most evil motherfuckers imaginable, even if all they did is scrub toilets. Zero distinction.
That’s not how I understand language to work Worked for/with Nazis, adjective: Nazi. What reconsideration would you like me to make? They worked for/with “the most evil motherfuckers imaginable”, messy work that, makes sense you get some stink on you.
The post is about historic legacy. Learning the lessons of history. The historic legacy of those that worked for/with Nazis is “Nazi”.
You shared your personal philosophy, here’s one of mine. If you get the opportunity to work for/with the most evil motherfuckers imaginable: don’t. Else history might few you in the most charitable of light.
Imagine what fate you’d assign to Adolf literally Hitler if he hadn’t done the last decent thing in his life as the Soviets knocked on his door.
Would you give nearly the entire population of mid-century Germany the same treatment?
How are you not understanding this? The post has explained it. I have explained it. History remembers the guy that cleaned Hitler’s toilets under the collective noun “Nazi”.
History remembers Hitler specifically. In the wiki article I provided, and you haven’t read, Adolf Hitler has his own link his toilet cleaner does not. That is what you call a false equivelincy, please apologise. Please try again with a good faith argument.
What reconsideration would you like me to make?
Please respond.
While you you continue to act in bad faith I will talk past you for a minute. This person will “nuance” themselves all the way to a camp, or they’ll nuance you all the way to a camp. Nazis are Nazis, don’t let them convince you otherwise.
You don’t know what bad faith means, beyond people disagreeing with you.
Staying within the US, there’s a lot of Confederates who should have been hanged, but if you applied that to everyone who could be called a Confederate, you’d be describing a genocide. You can condemn people for not resisting their intolerable circumstances - but it’s not the same manner of moral failing as deliberately creating those circumstances.
Otherwise, how much of an asshole are you for participating in capitalism?
I won’t answer your questions until you answer mine. More bad faith.
I notice you just learned that Hitler and his toilet cleaner are remembered differently and have dropped the point. This a common tactic among bad actors
Talking past you again until how you learn to have a discussion We remember the people that worked with/for the Confederates as: Confederates. The post is about how history remembers people that work for/with evil. We remember them as evil. Don’t want to be remembered as evil? Don’t work for/with evil.
How many times has this person heard this? Here they try to reframe it as Confederates but it’s still true that history remembers them as Confederates.
Will you try again?
If your livelihood depends on Hitler being in power, you’re going to keep him in power. In a very real sense, the toilet guy is more culpable than the asshole who sat on it.
“You know who I blame for the holocaust? The janitor!”
Fuck off.
Hitler had no power whatsoever without the will of the German populace.
It was the sum total of all the trivial efforts - like those of that janitor - that gave us the Holocaust.
Dictators have immense power despite what the populace wants. That’s… what makes them dictators. Even when everyone opposes the military, their opposition is the military, so the people tend to lose horribly.
Are you more responsible for capitalism than Elon Musk?
Were all the workers who worked for Henry Ford nazi?
Henry Ford’s factories were not in Germany though were they. They were not in the third reich were they. Now I know Detriot is bad but it never was nazi Germany bad.
Have a good day fighting fascism.
Ford-Werke in Cologne. They had truck plants in Germany.
What about people working at shell or nestlé, are they all bloody imperialists? many times people have no choice, after all these layoffs it will be so easy to replace you. The US goverment does so many unrelated things (although it’s likely for these things to be cancelled in the future). Saying everyone is a nazi won’t help anyone.
If you want to have any meaningful impact don’t leave. Organize, unionize, if that’s impossible try to work as little as possible and with as little quality as possible, talk with your colleagues. That’s how you have any meaningful change.
This is a bad take, capitalist and the Nazis running the government don’t give two shits if a couple people quit to clear their conscience. If your in a productive part of the government, healthcare, sanitation, infrastructure etc. that isn’t directly contributing to the camps then don’t quit, organize. Start agitating to create a union, if there already is one, agitate within it, maybe you’ll get fired anyway but if you’ve integrated yourself into the workplace more by fighting for a union then your fellow workers will have more sympathy, be more angry at the boss who is trying to suppress speech and be more likely to follow you and withhold their labor then if you just yelled “Fuck ICE” as you quit.
Change won’t come from individual uncoordinated silent acts of conscience, it comes through building solidarity with your fellow workers and fighting together.
This is all if you work in a part of the government that actually helps people, if you are working in ICE, defense contractors, etc. then yeah quit your job.
First quit, then organise. If people keep doing their government job, fascism will run better. Only sabotage from within would work, but that’s a pretty poor career path.
First quit, then organise.
Their spot will be filled with a yes man for the party. Better to organize in your position of power and let them fire or remove you forcefully than to give up your seat.
Quitting won’t help here, imo.
Sure, but maybe one that is less capable at the position, thus slowing down everything and everyone around them.
By your definition Schindler was a nazi, but by working for them he was able to save many lives… so I’m happy with anyone who continues to work with the goal of slowing down their progress.
Uh… just so we’re clear, Schindler in the movie and novel is a work of fiction, written in the 1980s by an Australian novelist.
The ‘historical’ Schindler was most definitely an enthusiastic Nazi… Being a member of the separatist precursor to the Nazi party from afar (while he lived in Czechoslovakia), and then a member of the Nazi party when he moved to Germany after helping the Nazis invade and occupy Czechoslovakia. He worked as an intelligence agent for the Nazi party before and during the war, and there is no doubt that the work he did caused many thousands of deaths. He was then a war profiteer, using cheap Warsaw ghetto laborers in his freshly-purchased factories, which were confiscated from Jews… He had absolutely no goals beyond self-service and Nazi ideals before finally growing a conscience circa 1942 once he realized the extreme brutality that was going on, and worked to protect (and add to) his cheap laborers.
In short, he’s a complicated person… most definitely a Nazi leading into and during most of the war, and probably a pretty terrible example.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/oskar-schindler
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Do you think he was the only one?
Crucial question: who are the Schindlers of today, so I can join them in better strategies than slavery?
Schindler’s Lifts.
🤭 ok, this one got me👏
You won’t find out until it’s over.
What exactly?
Schindler was able to save lives because the Nazis leadership didn’t realize what he was doing. If they had known he was using a work camp to effectively hide and protect Jews, the camp would have been shut down and Schindler killed.
Also, there’s lots of civil servants out there who have nothing to do with this. I work in municipal government, and we’re not cooperating with the feds on anything.
I am extremely aware of Schindler’s action.
I am saying who am I joining to prevent further descent to project2025? Because not a single American did anything after November’s 2024 results.
Does your municipal work aid fascism in any form or is it so removed from fascist exploit that it really needs not doing?
What will it take you to cease it entirely?Like the examples I’ve seen here and other threads: why hasn’t sewage systems, garbage collection, and water treatment municipality ceased in fash states, esp. in federal buildings?
Place yourself in the shoes of the persecuted, because I am one, and we’ve been deathcamped before.
You’re probably going to have to find out for yourself if you want to join someone on the inside. The whole point is that if anyone is disrupting things from within, they’re doing it secretly. So no one is able to name them publicly, otherwise they would be removed instantly.
It’s been 430 days since the fascist plan has been executed. I’ll have to conclude these modern day Schindlers don’t exist.
Schindler was not working for the government. Not directly, anyway.
He was literally a Nazi intelligence officer, wtf are you on about.
Wasn’t he manufacturing arms for them? Of course, in a way to help go against the grain the most while doing it.
Few if any useful artillery shells were produced at the plant. When officials from the Armaments Ministry questioned the factory’s low output, Schindler bought finished goods on the black market and resold them as his own.[71]
Also interesting to note:
Several thousand not deemed fit for work were sent to extermination camps and murdered; hundreds more were murdered on the streets by the Nazis as they cleared out the ghetto. Aware of the plans because of his Wehrmacht contacts, Schindler had his workers stay at the factory overnight to protect them from harm.[49] He witnessed the ghetto’s liquidation and was appalled. From that point, says Schindlerjude Sol Urbach, Schindler “changed his mind about the Nazis. He decided to get out and to save as many Jews as he could.”[50]
He was member of the NSDAP and a spy for the Wehrmacht. So he literally was a Nazi. Only when he directly witnessed their mass murder he changed his opinion.
So someone who helps nazis, but isn’t working for government is fine in your eyes?
It seems like a strange nitpick otherwise.
Funny kind of reasoning you got going there. Your leading question implies some black or white world view. Let me give you a nuanced answer: it really depends on what a person does as a whole to determine if that person is fine when helping nazis. Regardless if working for government or not.
Nobody working to slow the administration from the inside is splitting hairs about who is a Nazi. Take my word for it. Treat them all like Nazis.
Easy to say to people need to feed their family, put a roof over their head, support their community!
Would you be willing to lose your house, and see your children starve for your high morals?
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I am said people. Like I said, those doing the work from the inside will not blame you for mistaking them for Nazis. False positives will not harm the movement.
I am wondering why you are choosing a Nazi narrative to emotionally appeal to everyone’s kids who were sent to deathcamps.
You let your food rot. Twice. I am unsure who you really are trying to feed.
I don’t get your point. I’m against what’s going on in the US and if I was working in the government there and had the option, and savings, to quit I would.
My point is just not everyone can easily make that choice.
Then we are comrades. If you browse my profile for a bit, you’d find I have wanted to emigrate my fash archipelago for a long while. And I am equally financially disabled to do so.
I apologize then.
We call people, who worked for the Nazi Party, in the Nazi government, Nazis.
I mean, do we? I’m don’t think I’m convinced that every public school teacher in Germany from 1933 to 1945 was a Nazi.
Yeah, I’m not really sold on the ‘entire government’ thing. Some chemist testing soil samples for the Department of Agriculture isn’t part of the problem - that guy’s working for us.
ICE? 100% Nazis. There is no justifiable role in that organization. But we can (and should) purge that shit without crippling services that are actually benevolent.
Yeah i l don’t see how a park service maintenance worker scrubbing a toilet is supporting the Trump regime
I used to loved Thoreau, until I actually read Thoreau.
That’s a lot more than a word. I don’t have enough free time to spend it on a 16 page opinion article, but feel free tldr it and I’ll give my 2 cents.
Henry Thoreau was a great American author and abolitionist who wrote, among other important works, the essay Civil Disobedience. Written in 1849, the essay was written after Thoreau’s imprisonment for refusing to pay taxes in protest of slavery. The thesis of this essay claims that individuals have a moral obligation to defy unjust laws and institutions. He specifically implores government workers to resign in protest due to this moral obligation.
Here’s an audio version for those that are curious but don’t feel like reading it
What’s the argument, though? Defy unjust laws --> quit govt positions even if they’re an actual public service and not actually supporting the regime is quite the jump. It’s cool that he’s a great author and all, but an opinion piece is still an opinion piece - whether its good or not (and I’m assuming it is) depends on the reasoning therein.
Some absolutely horrific things have been done in the name of advancing healthcare… should I quit my job as a surgical tech because of the Tuskegee Syphilis Study? Wouldn’t it be better to stay in healthcare and blow the whistle if I see shit like that starting up again?
I’m not gonna be able to condense a 12 page essay into a digestible comment but essentially (read as stripping this part of all of its nuance): if people lived by the morals they claim, they wouldnt be able to sit idly by/ perpetuate a slave state. Can’t have a slave state if the bureaucrats running the slave state refuse to run it anymore. And citizens should not be compelled to pay taxes to an institution they find morally reprehensible.
Fun facts about the Tuskegee experiment, it was funded by the United States Public Health Service, the experiment itself was wholly unnecessary as we had recently found a standard of care that treated syphilis effectively, and almost nothing of value was learned. If the pencil pushers and other associated “little guys” enabling this experiment knew what was happening, they could’ve shut it down swiftly by bringing the bureaucratic process to a halt in an act of protest.
I’m an EMT, and I’ve often found myself in situations where it’s made me question whether I’m doing the right thing by working, and legitimizing, a medical system that feeds off the exploitation of the general populace and medical workers at large. Instead of quitting, I’ve settled on stealing medical supplies from hospitals and distributing them during food shares and free markets run by local organizations. I’m also a protest medic and help get people trained up to be protest medics. My attempts at unionizing have fallen flat in the past but I’ll still engage co-workers and fellow providers in hospitals to encourage organizing.
The people running the machine have an outsized influence on whether that machine runs or not, no matter what their bosses say. A large enough strike (<10% of the federal workforce) could bring this regime to its knees in a matter of days. I don’t wholly agree with Thoreau, but an act of resistance in the spirit of his argument would make a world of difference
Agreed on the vast majority of that.
Now let’s say you were employed by the USPHS, or VA, or IHS, or… there are other federal healthcare agencies, right? Anyway- you quit because Trump is a dickhead, and now what? Those supplies you’re distributing just got cut off. That doesn’t help anything.
The pitch I’d make: if you’re working for any part of the govt that’s functioning as an oppressor, then you should have quit a long time ago unless you’re actively sabotaging. Falling that, better late than never - GTFO now. But if you’re working for any other part of the govt, do your job and keep in mind who you serve - hint: it’s not your boss. Don’t be a silent pencil pusher like the ‘little guys’ in the Tuskegee experiment, speak the fuck up. But don’t just quit - use your position to actually serve the public, whether in an official capacity or akin to what you described.
So… I’m with you mostly, but I do hold that there’s a distinction between forces like the ICE Nazis and actual public servants employed by the govt.
If you were teaching the curriculum handed down by Nazis to teach children Nazi beliefs then you were a Nazi
We stopped calling any valuable scientist, engineer and entrepreneur a nazi as soon as we could use their skills, cars, or wealth too.
If they weren’t they got purged.
There were also Nazi soldiers who didn’t want to be there. Like they were told their families would be killed along with the Jews if they did not fight for the Fatherland. They don’t get sympathy. It seems like it’s an all-or-nothing thing with fascism (on both sides, actually, being for them or against them). So yes, OP likely means the school teachers as well. I don’t like that, but we can’t really say at this point whether they were teaching good things or bad ones (e.g. state sponsored).
Like teachers in America today being told that they can’t teach that it’s okay to be Hispanic, Black, or LGBTQ+. Some of them probably still are. Some of them are not. It’s hard to know how the numbers actually fall though. But the ones who are teaching hate to children absolutely do deserve to be lumped in with the rest of the movement, by the same logic.
The two-dollar term is “moral luck.”
they were told their families would be killed along with the Jews if they did not fight for the Fatherland.
Yep and so they choose to be Nazis.
The nuance you’re looking for doesn’t exist.
If you were told to rape and murder an 8 year old or you and your family dies, what would you do? Either you’re dead or a child rapist and child murderer. There’s not some gray area there.
Good thing teaching children is not the same as raping and killing them.
Ok, got you down for child rapist and murder since you dodged the question and I have no doubts that you will neither dodge nor say no when it’s a Nazi asking.
You’ve got a great debate strategy. You must have gone to the same seminars as Charlie Kirk.
You clowns are such a joke
Right, so you’re saying the teachers are complicit. I’m saying that’s how the logic works. You either take it or leave it. I’m not disagreeing with the OP, I’m clarifying for someone.
If you don’t agree with me, that’s not as clear.
Anyway, it’s all ethics. So in your example, you have one 8 year old who you have to kill. (What you do to them doesn’t really matter, except in how it’ll fuck up your own memories and dreams and whatnot. But as far as the ethical scales are concerned, your impact to the universe is you killed 1 child. And maybe others know it, maybe they don’t — you didn’t specify. Now, if you weigh that against just your partner being killed, maybe you’ve been married a long time, you’re both getting up there. You sacrifice yourself and your partner for this one child, as you should. But, what if your family includes three children about the same age? Then you have the classic trolley problem. Your inaction results in the death of the three children (plus whatever other family members). Your cruel action results in the death of one child. There is no easy answer, which is why the trolley problem continues to test people. Personally, my answer to the trolley problem is the inaction — you do nothing, more people die, you blame the trolley. You could have saved them, but by doing nothing, you didn’t do a bad thing, you just didn’t do a good thing and a bad thing. Ethically I think it’s the right call. Not everybody agrees.
yes. you need an entire nation of nazis to function under complete societal control. nazis have to be in every corner of public life, especially government facing positions. this application of the term doesn’t consider only full-fledged allegiance swearing nazis but workers as well who followed whatever orders they were given to keep their heads low and remain out of trouble. if you follow a nazi work ethic, in your nazi culture, hired by a company staffed by nazis, conducting government business through the lens of nazism… you’re a nazi. it doesn’t matter if you aren’t willingly being one or merely trying to live, you are upholding nazi values.
Well shit, someone better tell the genocide studies professors at state colleges that they’re actually Nazis
You mean those that already fled to Spain and Canada?
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Those people work for the state, not the federal government.
And this person is talking about all government workers.
It doesn’t matter, most federal workers fit as well. Career scientists and engineers at the EPA aren’t fucking Nazis
yeah, they are. they are willingly teaching state propaganda which has been fascist for decades just now more openly, and this current administration has destroyed education and instituted their own rules and regulations on what is and isn’t allowed to be taught. if you are working for the government in a capacity that puts authority or power in your hands, then yes, you are a little nazi puppet and are therefore a nazi yourself. it doesn’t mean you’re the same amount of evil as active nazis participating beyond their need to survive.
I’m just trying to keep my state college library’s tech running smoothly, and keep the students from having vaping in the 4th floor bathroom. I’m planning a Gaypril book display because the students are home over the summer, so they never see the one I put up for pride month. I know the procedures for if ICE shows up (they’re not allowed in non-public buildings, but the library is a public building). I keep snacks, drinks, and a first aid kit in my office in case I have to shelter in place. I’m a member of my union.
I’m trying my best here and so are my coworkers. I don’t see myself doing more good working in the private sector.
i don’t know if we are at the point where i would apply the “little nazis are everywhere” framework yet but i also can see the argument made for a parallel to Nazi Germany. many average nazis were not ideologically motivated and favored Hitler’s economic vision and the promise of restoring Germany. the sweet librarian was a nazi because she was poor and suffering, not because she hated Jews and believed in the supremacy of the Aryan race. but even workers in nazified fields were nazis doing the bidding of the party even if they were resisting in their own ways.
look at it this way: our education in the US has eroded significantly the past 30 years. right-wing policies have dismantled the effectiveness of public education and they have supplemented their own learning methods and material. education standards have been controlled by fascists for quite some time now which is why kids aren’t learning fuck all about actual real history. the US has removed and prevented genuine discussion of our past and are propagandizing our students into denying the harms we caused ourselves and the world.
you are a state worker upholding the standards set by the state. the state has been openly fascist since Trump’s first presidency. what are you going to do when your school starts telling staff they have to take away certain reading materials if they see students with them? what is your plan if state schools are required to implement policies that control speech and expression? because if your answer is to stay and provide a balance as the opposition you are being naive. you will have to also do their bidding or lose your job, so you’d be fighting fire by pouring water and oil on it.
there has to come a point in this administration where state jobs are seen as vile and avoided and anyone upholding the system should be looked at suspiciously. it doesn’t matter if the principal of a high school is a resistance Democrat, because they are still willingly being used to normalize and standardize fascism. they are also nazis.
My job is to improve access to educational resources and to help ease young adults into adulthood/soften life’s blows for my students. I can’t do that if I’m not at the school.
Librarians are keenly aware of the tension between intellectual freedom and the government. For example, since at least the PATRIOT act we’ve stopped keeping certain patron records–you can’t be compelled to share information you don’t have. You think I’ve not been watching librarians in other states be prosecuted for providing LGBTQ+ material to students? I’ve been paying attention.
I’ve not been asked to do anything against my morals. I’m a state employee, not a federal one, so changes made at the federal level get interpreted by my state government before reaching my college and me. TBH, I expect our services to be eroded through lack of funding, rather than through the implementation of new rules. We’re too understaffed to effectively implement new rules anyway.
I’m a state employee, not a federal one, so changes made at the federal level get interpreted by my state government before reaching my college and me.
I think the fact that so many people don’t seem to grasp this basic concept about how this country functions seems to imply that those services have already been eroded plenty
Your best would be shooting ICE if they come anywhere near the building, not just politely asking them to leave or cowering away when they step near a library.
“everyone working in my government”
Jesus Fucking Christ… I swear, some people read “kill the liberal inside your head” and heard “turn into a rambling, insufferable edgelord that has completely lost touch with reality.”
Do you even have the remotest idea how thoroughly fucked you (yes you, specifically - and specifically everybody around you) would be if every public worker in your country suddenly decided to up and leave their government job to fulfill your edgelord fantasy moral purity test?
We’re talking everybody - from the street sweepers, to sanitation workers, to nurses and health inspectors. Just how far do you think you’re going to get?
Even Joseph Fucking Stalin didn’t buy into this bullshit narrative of yours - neither did the hundreds of thousands of troops and resistance fighters who marched into Germany (including anarchist ones) and saw every kind of Nazi depravity with their own damn eyes.
But you, edgelord supremo, know better than them, right?
You’re right, it’s much better if the government agents prop the nazi regime. A strike of any sort is totally edgelord behaviour.
Fucking cringe, mate.
It is better to have them there, rather than have the government be 100% Fascists. People who don’t support them can slow things down by “accidentally” doing things wrong/poorly. If they all leave and are replaced by actual Fascists who want to support the regime, they will do things as well as they possibly can. Also, having people in there who can feed information is also really useful.
You’re right, it’s much better if the government agents prop the nazi regime.
Who is propping up this regime, db0?
The people who collected your garbage this week, perhaps?
Howzabout the plumbers who ensures that there’s water coming out of your taps? Perhaps them?
A strike of any sort is totally edgelord behaviour.
Who said anything about strikes? If the aforementioned garbage collectors and plumbers leave their government jobs out of some moral prerogative they can’t actually go on strikes, can they? The only place they’ll be “picketing” is on the unemployment line.
Motherfucker over here splitting hairs on how to disrupt the fucking nazi government…
Not going to engage with this cringe any further. I’m getting psychic damage just engaging with these arguments.
Oh, you’re “getting psychic damage?”
I’m getting “psychic damage” constantly having to try and talk sense into “anarchists” who believe distancing themselves from the working class and maintaining the correct level of edgelord vibes will (somehow) magically change anything.
Don’t bother banning me… I’ll show myself out.
Yeah no, that’s not at all what they’re doing. Or do you disagree with what they said and think we should be killing plumbers and garbage men?
Grow up. Maybe read up on just how many people are employed by the US government at every level, and what some of those jobs actually are.
Nice strawman
What strawman? I was asking if you disagreed with their point, because you didn’t address it at all. That’s not what a straw man is
That’s not what a straw man is
Oh really? Where did anyone say anything about murdening plumbers and garbage men.
This is why tankies and communists are not allies of anyone. They put personal survival ahead of the survival of others. They have zero capacity for self sacrifice.
you misquoted liberals, who are in Congress right now, wearing badges as “Democrats”
Go ahead explain to me how a park service maintenance worker scrubbing a toilet is propping up the regime.
Don’t you know it’s telephone sanitation engineers keeping society alive
have all the sanitation workers walkout and we’ll see how quickly a regime with clogged toilets (among others) survives.
They’d just put up an out of order sign or close the park. Doesn’t effect the regime and only harms the public
Harming the public helps the resistance, by turning the public against the oppressive regime. Just like the oppressive regime shooting an innocent woman in the head helps the resistance by turning the public against the oppressive regime.
In the US? Lol ok
Unfortunately I don’t have that much faith in my fellow citizens anymore.
I don’t think anything is going to change until many begin starving. Hope I’m wrong though
That’s already the case:
https://www.worldhunger.org/recent-news-about-death-from-malnutrition-in-the-united-states/
/disengage
A strike of any sort is totally edgelord behaviour.
Uhhhh, I thought this was strictly an anarchist instance? Not a prog-lib one. You think ditching tried and true socialist praxis is “edgelord behaviour?”OOpsCan you parse sarcasm?
also big reminder we are the ones who have to take them to court, they won’t kill or arrest themselves.
To be clear, nazis weren’t entirely purged, there was the whole Baader Meinhoff movement kicked off by the youth discovering their government and teachers had also been nazis.
Oh yeah I know. In fact many of them got promoted
Also, “wasn’t a good defense in court” is not true at all. The US Nuremberg trials had a <0.2% conviction rate for war criminals, and <1% for “major war criminals” (not even just rank and file like a government employee would be).
It was apparently an amazing defense that resulted in the lowest conviction rate of almost any crime in history besides “perjury” which is the biggest joke of a law in the US.
Yep sometimes to head of NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Heusinger
