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Idk, I’m very whelmed by this, warnings weren’t needed, sounds just about right.
This is actually a great perspective to point out against anti-intellectual arguments like evolution being fake, when people ask why humans are not evolving. What kind of evolution can you expect in 450 iterations? That’s nothing in the timeline of the earth. Plus 450 mothers is already more than what some religious fanatics claim is the age of the earth.
Exactly. The fact that our kids can look different from us at all is fucking wild
That’s mostly gene mixing though.
If you had your child alone (a clone), they would look quite exactly like you. It would take several generations to see a change.
Pre-modern first-birth ages were more in the range 15 to 20. So rather 5 to 6 mothers per century.
You’re assuming that your matrilineal line is entirely composed of firstborns.
And the meme is being conservative
The greatest difference between us and our distant ancestors isn’t intelligence. It’s the knowledge we’ve inherited. Education is humanity’s greatest achievement.
We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. I’m grateful to those who lifted us up, and I’ll humbly do my part to lift those who come after us.
It’s society & available materials.
If you took all your knowledge 10k years ago the daily life would still fairly resemble the lives they had.
Between what the people 12k years ago knew and what just about any person today knows, you could start agriculture, building houses, at least the idea of digging wells, hygiene, the wheel, writing, and probably some others. A decently educated person in history, technology, or science (and I don’t mean university-level) could add metalworking, astronomy, and animal domestication. The biggest limits to what you could do up to the industrial age would be megafauna and dieing before you accomplished it. If you passed on education, scientific theory, and the knowledge you had, there’s a fair chance those things could be continued after you died.
As far as society goes, there is good evidence chimps have society, as well as early homonids. I’m pretty sure we had that 12k years ago, too.
I don’t think you would have much impact. Even if we assume you are extremely good at learning new (i.e. old) languages, extremely popular (everything you suggest is done), and you have a rich benefactor who houses and feeds you, you are still lacking the giant supply chain stack that is absolutely required to get anything done in the modern world.
The only thing I could maybe get done is making some extremely bad and extremely expensive soap. Concrete or metals would be so far out of reach, I might as well work on a perpetual motion machine or try to transform lead to gold. Just go into the woods and try to mine some iron and you see what I mean.
The average modern person knows probably less about agriculture and building houses than the average person 12k years ago, and those are pretty intuitive.
The wheel isn’t some complex contraption that needs to be improved over generations. It’s probably the most simple tool imaginable, but it’s also useless unless you have roads.
I’m always amazed how modern people have no idea how useless they would be just a few hundred years ago.
I absolutely agree (I didn’t say it wouldn’t change things), but the first decades/generation would still be pretty basic, much of the knowledge wouldn’t be applicable until you build your tools, get basics sorted, build safety nets, etc.
For everything you need a willing society bcs one individual can’t do it all - it’s either you dig/build one well & others feed you or you do the efforts communally. Same with metalwork, that’s a whole specialisation in the most basic sense (you need a workforce & resources for them to gather ore, work it, and forge anything of useful size - metalwork to produce a few grammes of metal per year isn’t worth it, so you need a city-sized community at your disposal, and you need to get to that point … unless maybe as an expensive way to just pass the knowledge for later gens to put it to good use, which might be successful, unless forgotten or the community doesn’t survive).
Animal domestication can take generations too in some cases (bovids), you need to first focus on docile females, and once they stay in a designated area (either like a valley or even fenced fields), you need the resources (food) to keep them alive there. So you need to build up agriculture at scale first. That why we found the first real domestication evidence around ancient cities, not random villages.
If you went back 10000 years you definitively would have become an inventor or philosopher of sorts (assuming you could speak their language)
Well, I guess it depends on your education, but we get taught things in elementary school that wouldn’t have been invented or discovered for thousands of years back then. And some technologies you likely could make without many pre-requisite technologies themselves
If the average person went back 10k years they would be regarded as insane or heretical. Even assuming communication wasn’t an issue, way too much of your knowledge is built upon things you don’t understand and don’t exist. You can’t do anything with electricity until you can refine metals and make copper wire. No average person knows the precursor plants for medicine. Brick making is beyond the average person and you wouldn’t have a kiln anyway. Working without metal tools makes most processes the average person would know impossible.
I absolutely agree (I didn’t say it wouldn’t change things), but the first decades/generation would still be pretty basic, much of the knowledge wouldn’t be applicable until you build your tools, get basics sorted, build safety nets, etc.
I’m trying to make the distinction between the ability to just ‘make’ as a proof of concept & actually apply that knowledge at scale that makes any difference in that accident context. Like metalwork - without (smol-)city-sized communities (labour, and accumulated resources like winter food & shelters) it doesn’t make sense bcs you don’t end up with enough use-cases.
(Ofc immediate location is a great factor in what knowledge is more applicable and what not - surviving in the Arctic circle would be much different to the some savannah).
I do agree with that!
That’s a beautiful way of thinking about it!
If of one person today every previous generation ancestral parents only consists of unique pairs then go back 80 generations that’s 280 of people had to exist during that 80th generation back. That’s more than 1.2 septillion so a one with 24 zeros. So that’s impossible that’s more people than have existed in history. Meaning that inbreeding has happened in everyone’s family tree. So lots of distant cousin marriages. But unfortunately also some fucked up shit like some of your ancestor’s parents are brother and sister or father and daughter. So if you follow your paternal line back the number of dads is less than the number of mothers.
You’ve made the assumption that everyone has a unique pair of parents. You’ve not taken into account that parents can have multiple children.
One of the reasons behind the population boom (but not the only reason by any means) is that infant mortality is so low nowadays. Not that long ago, you could have entire families wiped out by diseases that are now functionally eradicated or easily treatable.
If you assume two children per group of parents survive until adulthood, the population line stays stable. It’s because of the massive rise in the number of children reaching adulthood that the population spikes so suddenly.
No that’s not the assumption I made. I said if one living person today had unique parents all the way back. Why would I have to take into account siblings if I’m only looking at the direct lineage.
I also said it’s impossible and inbreeding and pedigree collapse occurred.
Anything but metrics…
The advent of agriculture (11.5 kya) was 4.5 hectomothers ago
I came here to say “obviously American, anything but metrics…”, but you bet me to it.
I may be an ignorant American, but can you explain metric time to me? What is the SI unit of time? Days? I’ll meet you in 4 decidays, 3 centidays, and 20 millidays.
USians are so insulated that they don’t know the rest of the world has 10 hours in a day, 100 minutes each.
Half a cup of seconds
Ehm … Metric … Time?
According to this scale, Aboriginal Australian cultures are 2,600 mothers old.
I think about this, and do this math in my head too, all the time. 80 mothers to Ancient Rome. 400 mothers to start of farming.
I looked up the average age of mothers at the time of their first child birth in 1863 because I really badly wanted to make a joke about a “score” being 20 for that reason.
Sadly the average age was 22-26 so my day is ruined.
Haha reminds me of that other stat how you only need to strip/peel a some graphite on a piece of tape like 20 times to reach a single atom thickness (graphene).
The average mother having their average daughter at an average of 25 is historically probably quite an overestimate. 20 would be a much safer guess, but there’s a good chance it’s lower than that too.
Doesn’t change the math that much though, easily less than a thousand generations since the advent of agriculture either way.
Tbf, it was also far more common for people to have a shitload of kids, which takes time and thus would mean the mother was a fair bit older for the youngest few. My grandma was the youngest of 12 and her mother was well into her 40s when she was born.
Surprisingly no. At least in central and western Europe, child marriages were very much a nobility thing. Securing alliances and such. And even for those the first child may well have been much later.
I don’t have an individual statistic on hand but https://fakehistoryhunter.net/2026/01/18/age-of-marriage-giving-birth-in-medieval-europe/ has collected a bunch of sources that suggest that the usual age of first marriage in medieval Europe for women was around their mid 20s, pretty much the same as today.
You’re joking though. Right? Or are you thinking about wealthy people? The ones who might be written about?
I come from several generations of “prom night” conceptions and “shot gun weddings”.
Read the page I linked. It specifically lists sources that specifically talk about peasants in medieval Europe who on average married later than nobility.
Prom night conceptions and shotgun weddings are a phenomenon of the 20th and 21st century and would have been considered absolutely scandalous for most of history.
uhm, actually the age of marriage basically exclusively depended on the real circumstances. in the roman empire, it was much lower, because rome was eternally at war, which consumed a whole lot of soldiers. that would not have been possible if women hadn’t had a lot of children, for which you’d have to start early.
the christian religion increased the minimum marriage age from 12 (!!) to 15 in the 3rd century CE (late roman empire), because rome stopped being a war-based country and there was simply no need for that many soldiers anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age
also the same link explains that the average age of first childbirth was significantly lower for american settlers than for european peasants in the early modern age; again the reasoning is that the american settlers were a highly expansive population (roughly a doubling of population every 20 years!! in the time period 1650 - 1880).
I’m sorry, but I am also a source.
Anecdotal data isn’t
It is. But only as data point(s), not as a trend or generalization.
You can’t just look at the age of the mother when she has her first daughter. You also have to consider her age at the time of her last daughter. Even if she has her “prom night” daughter at 18, if she later has another daughter at 36, we’re looking at an average age of 27.
see my other reply below
Yeah. As society becomes more complex, maturity and preparedness comes much later. “Growing up” takes much longer.
Go back a thousand years, things were much simpler. There was less to navigate and learn so “the real world” started much earlier.
Look at any other creature without society and see how their life unfolds. They’re “adult” very quickly because within a short time they’ve got enough figured out to go out into the world alone.
Meanwhile, we’re now at a point where it’s normal to have a first child in the 30s and 40s, feeling completely unready.
Lots of babies and children died before adulthood though, so its actually not a bad bet for 25 as an average birthing age for one that survives to adulthood. Not that every woman would lose her first 2 kids or whatever but enough certainly did to drive the average up somewhat from what it would be with modern medicine.
Always remember: these people were DNA-identical to us. All this life-saving, life-extending, life-improving technology… is always just 2-3 generations from poof
i think it’s also worth noting that a whole lot of children basically died due to malnutrition … think about it. contraception was not existent, so if a woman gets pregnant 8 times, but the family can only feed 2 children, that effectively means that 6 would essentially starve (or die due to other “preventable” diseases, but actually the better prevention than modern medicine is just food, since enough food strengthenes the immune system).
even if you had modern medicine at the time, children would still starve; the thing that really drives down child mortality is just a lower birth-rate altogether, since the family can still feed 2 children, regardless of whether they actually make 2 or 8 babies.
i looked that up a while ago and apparently the median age of first childbirth was around 21 or 22 for women, though this depends on wealth: wealthy people had children earlier (on average), going down to about 16-18 for many noble women.
poor people often didn’t have children at all.
By this math, humans have only been around for about 80,000 mothers.
I pointed out that the people in those photos screaming at Ruby Bridges are still alive and vote like mad and my brother was flabbergasted.
My grandmother passed away in 2015, but when she was born in 1922, there were Civil War veterans and people who had been owned as slaves still walking around. She was 43 when the Civil Rights Act passed
I’m actually surprised at the reactions.
This is a very, “Yeah…” thing.
Maybe it’s people’s concept of time is centred around the ego. Like, they don’t realise how short 80 years is. That’s only 80 orbits 🤣
Wait until you find out the dinosaurs were basically “yesterday” in Earth’s timeline.
We’re very brief. “Life’s short” isn’t just some quirky saying.
I think it’s the opposite. Most people aren’t that egotistical. We all feel quite small relative to history. But I think OP is highlighting that even history is quite short. Ancient Rome, which feels like a very long time ago, is actually only 80 generations ago. If “life’s short”, then 80 lives is short too.
I think you might not be entirely sure what ego is/means. “Egotistical” derived from it, but they’re not the same thing.
Otherwise, you’re basically just saying what I said.
Gives perspective on how accelerated change has become in modern times.
