(not that we know where to repair it or how much it’d cost, we just throw it)
Edit : I can understand why taking two hours to repair something worth 20€ isn’t worth it though, e.g. a computer mouse, but even in such case we could standardize a minimum and have enterprises specialized in ensuring that spare parts are always available(, each costing a few euros).
Then instead of the longer task of repairing a circuit board, the consumer could easily swap it by h·er·im·self, or leave it to a pro who’d take less than 5mns.
(And the older circuit board would be sent for free and either repaired or stripped for parts)
(Transportation costs will be greatly reduced in the very near future with automation, but warehouses should exist less than 12h away)
In Europe they introduced a “Right to repair” law, that force manufacturers ensure spare parts for at least 10 years and provide repair service at a reasonable price.
That’s a great measure that should incentivice companies to make products more repairabld!
This is how we got to become a society of “disposable” culture.
How far into the future? Cuz it seems more like people would be incredulous you were able to repair a thing at all the way shit’s going.
Repaired a TV I found on the sidewalk, paper taped to it said free so mine it was. It’s a FireTV which, have awful designs, but are decent TVs if you have a Prime account already.
But it was a 1hr, $40 backlight job, complete with additional grievances against Amazon. My partner acted like I was a wizard when we were able to watch a movie on it lol
My theory is that we going solarpunk utopian society but it’s gonna take a long period of cyberpunk dystopia to get there.
Who knows, 50 years ?
I don’t think we’ll continue like that, it can’t make sense for too long that buying a new one is cheaper than repairing an old one. I suppose.
Even without software lock in making repairs difficult, I imagine the same trends of the past century will continue. Repair will likely to continue to become more impractical. It’s always going to be easier to automate the production of goods than the repair of goods.
Sure, i’m optimistic(, but it’d make so much more sense than throwing away)
It’s always going to be easier to automate the production of goods than the repair of goods.
We can automate the production of spare parts.
And swapping a part for another is quick and can usually be done by the consumer(, or by a pro if it’s more complex).
Repairing a part is hard, but swapping it is usually easy, unless when the part is difficult to access which doesn’t seem to be an engineering necessity in most cases ?We can automate the production of spare parts, but that may not mean much. Look at something as simple as a door. You can buy a door without hinges, cut mortices for it, and hang it in place. Most people instead buy pre-hung doors. The time saved installing the door frame piecemeal is worth the cost of buying a whole manufactured assembly. Yes, some things can easily be replaced. A battery can easily be swapped out if a device is built to allow it. But most components can’t be so easily replaced. And usually it’s not possible to design a device to have every part easily serviceable. You are vastly understating the time and difficulty of repairing things.
Think about the early 20th century, when consumer electronics were simple and designed to be repaired. In that world, most people still didn’t do their own repairs. Most people took their broken devices to repair shops. Even if you have access to spare parts, it takes a lot of time to repair something even as simple as a radio. It took enough effort that it made sense for people to specialize in it and make it their career.
And this will only continue in the future. Automation makes human labor more valuable, not less. Our capabilities to do things increases, but the bottleneck is always human labor. And the more we can produce, the more value those scarce human labor hours have. Unless you can automate the entire repair process, increased automation will make us more likely to throw things away.
And worse, automation makes it easier just to start from scratch. You can always take a broken device, throw it in a crucible with a mountain of other broken devices, and just melt the whole lot down. And automation also gives us cheaper energy, as it makes it cheaper to install ever-more solar panels and batteries.
Most people instead buy pre-hung doors.
Bad example against reparation i.m.o. since when the hinge break they don’t buy a new door(whole), but swap the broken hinge(part) for a new one.
Good example in the case of DIY though, since the hassle may not be worth the time spent.most components can’t be so easily replaced.
Every module in my computer, mouse, keyboard, screen, or, i.d.k., lamp torch, can be easily replaced with a screwdriver.
Even phones could be made easy to open. If you have a counter-example in mind to « unless when the part is difficult to access, which doesn’t seem to be an engineering necessity in most cases ? » written above, then i’m interested.Even if you have access to spare parts, it takes a lot of time to repair something even as simple as a radio.
But opening it and swapping the spare part(, well, welding it back then,) took less than 5mns.
What took a long time was opening it without breaking anything since it was fragile, with parts glued together. Radios were more complex than nowadays.
And they didn’t stop at swapping the spare part apparently, but ran a full diagnostic because other parts aged as well and, e.g., a shorted transistor could overheat a transformer.
To me, it seems like asking for an individual to repair his watch himself by getting a spare part, these are the kind of situations that should be done by pros. But then even if it takes many hours we’re not talking about a 20€ product, so it’s usually worth it to repair instead of buying a new one(, which is why people repaired them instead of buying new ones).
Other examples could include houses or cars, which are repaired because buying new ones wouldn’t be worth it.But the example of the radio still goes in my direction, because back then it was difficult to swap the spare parts and yet people still went through the trouble of repairing it.
How much more would it then be pertinent for objects that are thrown away while a pro could easily swap the spare part in 5mns(, or an individual do it h·er·im·self).
The problem i.m.o. is that there’s no repair·wo·man and no spare parts at a cheap price with close warehouses, so it’s not profitable/widespread.
You’re saying that most objects couldn’t have their parts easily swapped while i’m saying that most could(, at least we agree that some can&can’t)Unless you can automate the entire repair process, increased automation will make us more likely to throw things away.
I also disagree that more human labor would be required to swap a part than to build the whole product 🤷
I even think that less human labor would be required to swap a part than to build it.
Many humans are involved with the production process, from mining to selling.
And if you were thinking in terms of advanced robots taking human jobs, then they’d eventually be able to do simple reparation as well(, and more&more complex over time).
(Edit : and if we could have said that «this automaton will create 150 circuit boards of this particular model every model, while the previous generation only made 50/h», we can also say that «this automaton will create 150 different kind of circuit board, while the previous generation could only create 50», if that’s part of the counter-argument)And worse, automation makes it easier just to start from scratch.
Not easier to build the whole than the part
You can always take a broken device, throw it in a crucible with a mountain of other broken devices, and just melt the whole lot down.
Not really :)
But you could strip its parts yes, that’d be the most sensical option if you can’t repair it.
… :/
That would be ideal, but is not the reality right now, and several things would have to change in order to get there.
As a person that repairs everything I own as a hobby (I would love it to be my job but sadly it pays much less), I can tell confidently the following:
The reason why repairing things nowadays tend to cost equal or more is due to manufacturers actively making products harder to repair.
Soldered parts instead of connectors, glued chassis, glass parts that are imposible to remove without breaking, spare parts that are hard to find, or outright impossible due to being proprietary, and a long list of etc…
Furthermore, manufacturers factor in unit turnover for subsidising unit prices.
Ex. They’d rather charge you 300 for a TV that will last 4 years than 500 than one that will last 10.
Why? Simple math and “Maximising shareholder value”.
300/4 = 75 500/10 = 50
You dont know it but everything you own is a subscription service provided by the manufacturing companies.
This is aggravated by a never ending chain of improvements, new models, new trends that keep you in the loop of consumption.
Why would I try to repair my 3 years old phone when I can buy this new shiny one?
They are getting richer by the minute while the rest of us is digging an early grave for ourselves, by polluting the world and consuming non renewable materials at a insane speed.
Not everything is bad though.
In Europe they introduced a “Right to repair” law, that force manufacturers ensure spare parts for at least 10 years and provide repair service at a reasonable price.
That’s a great measure that should incentivice companies to make products more repairabld!
manufacturers actively making products harder to repair.
Possible counterexample: My dishwasher. The drain pump is super easy to replace – unplug it, disconnect the hoses, and pop it off the little metal piece that supports its weight. It takes longer to bail out the water in the pan and wiggle it out from under the counter than it does to replace the faulty pump.
(At the same time, it’s a pretty crap model. We’ve had to replace that drain pump 3 times since 2019)
Granted some appliances are harder to replace and due to that are expected to last longer.
No the case for smaller ones that are full of plastic parts that are imposible to source replacements for.
I think 3D printing will help a lot with that.
True. Dishwasher is one thing, but IDK that I’d be able to swap out any parts on my coffee maker or immersion blender.
Funny you use a computer mouse as an example. I have repaired my computer mouse recently, and they make switches and some of the hardware pieces and sometimes button kits that you can swap out heavily worn stuff. It’s worth it to me, often if others would say it’s not worth the money. It feels good to fix something. My mouse was probably only $70 when I bought it over a decade ago, but they really don’t make them the same any more. My buttons show hardly any wear because of the material they’re made of, and the plastic is still in good condition. And now they’re like over $200 which makes me want to barf especially considering it feels like a downgrade to me.
Anyway, my point is that if you open something up, you often find it is made of parts you can replace. That’s not to say that it’s easy, and it would be great if it was easier. E waste is a huge problem for sure.
I looked into buying a DIY kit for making a mouse recently in order to easily repair it(, and eventually improve/customize it i.d.k., at least understand it better), but there’s not much choice so i gave up and bought one at 30€.
you often find it is made of parts you can replace
But good luck to find these parts, they have a serial number but from my experience with a computer screen, the circuit board is really expensive and takes a long time to ship, so they told me to just buy a new screen(, it was only one of its ~4 circuit boards, and a small component of it furthemore, but everything was thrown out).
That’s probably why most objects are just thrown away and people don’t even attempt to repair them(, if it was cheaper that practice would probably be more widespread)I have repaired my computer mouse recently
You opened it and found a spare part online for a cheap enough price ?
It must be a big(&unusual?) brand if they sell parts for their mouse online.now they’re like over $200
I’d have to look at the specs to see if the difference with a $40 mouse is worth paying 5 times more 🤷
You don’t always need to replace the part with something the manufacturer offers as a replacement. Something like a screen board might be hard/ impossible to find an alternative for, but things like buttons or sensors inside of mice are rarely something made specifically by the mouse manufacturer. They can almost always be replaced by an equivalent generic part. Hell, my 3D printer motherboard took a shit on me a couple years ago, and I bought an aftermarket board and installed 3rd party firmware on it to get it up and running again.
Like you said it’d be great if it were just easy for everyone to do these things, but as devices get more advanced they’re gonna require more advanced knowledge to work on, and not everyone has the time, interest, or resources to learn how to diagnose and repair stuff.
I have opened and tried to fix all my things. Including multiple cheap mouses. Although I have not always been successful, I mostly see it as an experience, and as a learning moment. It’s broken anyway, so it could only get better. Quite often I’m able to improve on it too! (add USB C charging to a mouse)
Will it though?
Why would that be the case in the future? It was in the past, when people used to maintain whatever they made/bought and use it until it was completely unusable, because they were too poor to buy a new one
Industry and automation made production way more cost efficient, but didn’t do the same for repairing, probably because it’s not as predictable and automatable as making stuff from scratch
You can repair a lot of stuff, but you usually have to pay more than the price of buying a new item
Industry and automation made production way more cost efficient
It should still be cheaper to build a new part(, and change that part,) than a new whole(, and buy that whole).
And i.d.k. if it’s the only reason for the low prices : it’s cheaper for westerners to buy from non-westerners(, including mines or actions), and conversely.
Repairing is done locally(, otherwise the transport would take too long), and ends up being more expensive than buying new products made externally.
Our productivity may be higher[1], even if we’re deindustrialized, but their minimum wage is way less than ours.
[1] : I.m.o., even more obviously when considering that we’re in the finance sector, we may reverse things when saying that a high productivity explains the difference in living standards : it’s the difference in living standards and GDP that inflates the productivity.
Since productivity∝GDP, then countries with a high GDP will have a high productivity.
And a country that increased its GDP(, e.g. through increasing its minimum wage perhaps,) would hence increase its productivity. Just an uninformed thought on my part, i.d.k. honestly.If i keep the example of the computer mouse, it couldn’t cost 20€ if it was produced locally, if only because it takes much more than 2 cumulated hours to build one, at a minimum wage of 10€/h.
Conversely though, it’d mean that it’d be very expensive for a non-westerner to buy products made in the west, which is the case, but we can still manage to sell them because we have a monopoly on new technologies(, with e.g. Japan or South Korea, but then again their minimum wage is high as well so it’s the same remark), such as planes or softwares.Just look at houses or cars (which are designed for repairability) and you’ll see that building new is almost always easier and cheaper (although that doesn’t mean it’s never worth it to repair).
A good example is any electrical or plumbing work in a house. You need to identify the issue, access the problem area, fix the problem, then patch the area back up. This is why repair and maintenance is such a huge part of home ownership.
Sadly as things become more complex and minituraized the ability to repair them also becomes more difficult. You can sometimes cannabilize multiple pieces of electronics to create a functional one, but it’s almost impossible to repair a motherboard/circuitboard for a tv/laptop/electronic. And that’s not even getting into plastics, which are almost impossible to work with after they’ve been finalized for a product.
Maybe, if for some reason we stop manufacturing things with complex shapes via injection molding (which is, like, super cheap on big scale) or similar processes, and come back to “constructing them from a lot of generic parts, preferably easily recycleable”. Also semiconductor components (actual microcontrollers, or displays, and in some cases whole boards if they are tiny enough, because of how many effort they require) are not really repairable, you just replace broken components.
Edit: Also whole economy of scale go against this. Repairing stuff (now) is usually about individual products, hard to automate, and requires skill, also means complex logistics. Manufacturing tons of the same stuff cheapens over time, required less skill for each individual part or product and in general is highly automated.
It would have been unbelievable in the past as well. What we are experiencing right now shouldn’t be considered normal. Quality and efficiency have no longer being incentivized by the forces of the market for quite a while. If we don’t fix that, there won’t be a future for us to be baffled by this in.
I will repair something if it’s swapping out a part and considering if what I’m repairing is overall worth repairing. Something’s just aren’t worth disassembling and attempting to fix and now lots of things are built in ways that cause them to break even further if you tried to disassemble it. A lot of things are glued together or have fragile clips that break.
Being handy isn’t hard, you just have to try and then go buy a new one if you can’t fix it. The worst parts are getting the tools, buying is fun but expensive, and then if people find out that you can fix it then they will start asking for favors.
Only if we level the global payscale, living conditions, and economy. Otherwise, as long as wealthy nations have vastly more disposable income than poorer nations, they will continue to be exploited. The cost of labor to commercially repair something in the EU or North America is typically higher than the cost to have someone build a new product in India or China, ship it there, warehouse it, and ship it to your door.
I fix things. I always have. I tinker everywhere. It’s not profitable. I can only do it for myself or for friends and family for free. If overall functionality is already lost, I always try to figure it out. I saved a nice gaming monitor from a friend’s trash by finding the capacitor on the main power port hadn’t seated right before soldering, so it was temperamental. Took 2 disassemblies and 3 hours to find and fix, but has now been running for 6 years flawlessly. When it malfunctioned, it had NO life at all, which likely narrowed it down to between the power socket and the main board. I bet your local labor price on ~2 hours plus risk/profit fee is comparable a new low end monitor.
I do lots of automotive repair for myself. It’s annoying as shit in forums to see people complain “there’s no good mechanics anymore, they’re all parts replacers now” and in the next reply say “just buy a new brake drum/rotor because it costs the same to have yours turned (refinished)”. As if the “parts replacers” can do the refinishing for free. They’re mad about the inflation/exploitation combo but taking it out on some other person suffering the same market imbalance.
There is a reason all the cool hack and repair videos now largely come out of Asia. It’s not just sheer population numbers, they’re activities that largely don’t happen in NA/Eur anymore.
it’ll either be Star Trek (“repair? just put it in the matter reclamator and replicate a new one!”)
or Mad Max (“of course you repair! wait, what’s a ‘new thing’?”)
I think the opposite is going to be true. One thing I noticed when I moved recently is that’s it’s getting cheaper to throw out perfectly good stuff and then buy it again rather than paying to have it shipped long distance too.
Wow
It also reminds me that it was apparently cheaper to destroy most of the military equipment when leaving Afghanistan than rapatriating it.
If that’s the case, it probably means you just get to “own” products as a subscription; which collectively covers supposed “refurbished” product replacements when they break.
